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Old 29.05.2011, 01:39
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Re: Kids in blackface

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But they were not Americans were they?
Legally speaking, of COURSE they were!

It's the mentally challenged that don't understand the difference (and I'll bet most border guards DO understand the difference)

Tom
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:44
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Re: Kids in blackface

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1- Where did she say it was an international school?
Hm, somehow I had her as IS. That does not really change the fact of even if one does work in a local school, is hired as a Cannadian, to teach English and expose kids to different culture, it may come with that prof having different standards in the class, including allowing or not allowing kids to be pc/unpc. We don't really know the reasons, why would a teacher do so, or OP, I listed a few, ie mixed cultures class. I do the same filtering and support, works pretty well.

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2- One can certainly state their opinion, and especially in Complaints Corner. But the opinion offered was offensive to a lot of people, and was delivered in a way that didn't invite debate at all.
I don't disagree, debate is usually invited in a different manner. Maybe she wasn't after a debate, maybe she wanted to off load. Like most people in complaint corner. I would want a debate, sure. But who knows. That by any means should be an invitation to give her her own medicine. Why? Just because she touches a sensitive point of a couple of expats here that decided to leave that bit of their herriage behind them in their homeland? But, unlike them, she has to face the conflict every single day? Being hired to represent one thing, but have to deal with situations that make her feel deeply uncomfortable? I can totally imagine that being hard. I feel fortunate coming from a pretty reasonable apathetic enough place where everybody happily drinks with everybody. But other people's history is different. That one happens to be from a similar background as OP but does not share her view, so what? No need to be all sharp with words here, really, my point was if OP was upset, why get onto her like a bunch of mad bees? And I think she got exactly that from loads. This whole thread makes me laugh. Looks like bunch of people needed to prove how smart they are...Cmon, I prefer lol cats.

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Sure, the racist campaigns are from a small faction, but they are allowed, so those allowing them are sympathizers, right?
I don't really care if they are sympathizers, I don't think so, probably not. I do have a problem with racist campaign being legal, sure, since I come from a place where they are banned, for the sake of human rights. I could care less what happens in the US, really. Just understand if one is hired based on culture, language and cultural values, it might be shocking to witness some kind of deviation from what is considered respecting people's culture and ethnicity back home, and here.

I would deal with it differently, do not expect this place being like home, sure not, nor do I embrace the concept of ultra pc myself (not that I could be anways) but I understand why OP is shocked. It is not difficult to.
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  #303  
Old 29.05.2011, 01:45
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Re: Kids in blackface

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I would counter and say that some are too stupid to understand the obvious. So a Mexican citizen can go the the American border and say he's American? So he should have no issue getting in then right?
Now if you say North American and South American, that's different. But America=USA=American, nothing else. I know it must be hard for you to understand. Good luck with that.
Roland
To be honest, that's your dumbest post up to now. It isn't the American border, it is the US border. So even if you live elsewhere in the Americas can you only get in if you are a US citizen or have a visa.

Wikipedia reference-linkMexico_–_United_States_border
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:46
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Re: Kids in blackface

So why are their borders in the States, if everyone in Canada and Mexico is American? Can someone from Canada fly to the UK or any other country and tell the border patrol that they are American. No, they would look at their passport and see that they are Canadian or Mexican.
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:47
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Re: Kids in blackface

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So why are their borders in the States, if everyone in Canada and Mexico is American? Can someone from Canada fly to the UK or any other country and tell the border patrol that they are American. No, they would look at their passport and see that they are Canadian or Mexican.
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  #306  
Old 29.05.2011, 01:48
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Re: Kids in blackface

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Legally speaking, of COURSE they were!

It's the mentally challenged that don't understand the difference (and I'll bet most border guards DO understand the difference)

Tom
No, legally speaking they were not as they would have had USA passports if they were. Big letters doesn't make it so.
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:51
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Re: Kids in blackface

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To be honest, that's your dumbest post up to now. It isn't the American border, it is the US border. So even if you live elsewhere in the Americas can you only get in if you are a US citizen or have a visa.

Wikipedia reference-linkMexico_–_United_States_border
They are all interchangeable terms, American =USA, maybe not in your Native language but in English this has and always will refer to us Yanks.
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:56
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Re: Kids in blackface

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America=USA=American, nothing else.
How old are you?

Have you EVER studied history, geography, that sort of thing?

I'll bet that I've been an American (even by your lame definition) longer than you've been an American!

Tom
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Old 29.05.2011, 01:57
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Re: Kids in blackface

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How old are you?

Have you EVER studied history, geography, that sort of thing?

I'll bet that I've been an American longer than you've been an American!

Tom
I doubt that
Roland
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:02
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Re: Kids in blackface

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How old are you?

Have you EVER studied history, geography, that sort of thing?

I'll bet that I've been an American (even by your lame definition) longer than you've been an American!

Tom
I find your post discriminating and am fairly offended by it. Old people also have a right to be daft.
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:02
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Re: Kids in blackface

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I doubt that
Roland
Well, unless you are at least 50, I win (I stopped being American when I was 50+)

If you are over 50, then it depends by how much.

Tom

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  #312  
Old 29.05.2011, 02:03
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Re: Kids in blackface

And I protest this being Yanks vs the rest, since I am far from one.

I tried to give an insight into a specific kind of work we do, where racism/genuineness and pc vs non pc are not just philosophical concepts to get excited over on some board, but very tangible situations with young beings waiting for your immediate reaction and how conditioned we might be to either be quiet or somewhat try to change things so everyone in the class is happy and respected. It can be intense for some people. Both kids and teachers. I think at the end of the day, people meet somewhere mid way. If there was a carnival and I took my class into streets of Geneva, I might feel very odd to actually lead a class with kids with faces painted black.
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:06
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Re: Kids in blackface

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And I protest this being Yanks vs the rest, since I am far from one.

I tried to give an insight into a specific kind of work we do, where racism/genuineness and pc vs non pc are not just philosophical concepts to get excited over on some board, but very tangible situations with young beings waiting for your immediate reaction and how conditioned we might be to either be quiet or somewhat try to change things so everyone in the class is happy and respected. It can be intense for some people. Both kids and teachers. I think at the end of the day, people meet somewhere mid way. If there was a carnival and I took my class into streets of Geneva, I might feel very odd to actually lead a class with kids with faces painted black.
You obviously don't live in Ticino.

I have met several friends of mine dressed for carnevale in black-face, and tastefully done as well (usually as Jamaicans).

Tom
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:12
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Re: Kids in blackface

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And I protest this being Yanks vs the rest, since I am far from one.

I tried to give an insight into a specific kind of work we do, where racism/genuineness and pc vs non pc are not just philosophical concepts to get excited over on some board, but very tangible situations with young beings waiting for your immediate reaction and how conditioned we might be to either be quiet or somewhat try to change things so everyone in the class is happy and respected. It can be intense for some people. Both kids and teachers. I think at the end of the day, people meet somewhere mid way. If there was a carnival and I took my class into streets of Geneva, I might feel very odd to actually lead a class with kids with faces painted black.
OK, so suppose you have kids come to class in blackface, and you explain that it is unacceptable and why, that even if it is in the best possible spirit it is still offensive and there's your lesson in cultural sensitivity for the day.

And these clever kids get home and do some Googling, and see the blackface of old minstrel shows, and then they see Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, with full approval of the NAACP, and just what are they supposed to think then? That one must not question things that are clearly questionable, that the fact that they were shot down and another is lauded by the very people who should be offended.... is what? Is the life lesson that life in fact is rarely fair? That would actually be a good lesson- but label it as such.




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Old 29.05.2011, 02:17
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Re: Kids in blackface

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You obviously don't live in Ticino.

Tom
Hahaha, I wish.

Things are quite special in our area. The push for integration is very different, not saying there isn't one, but it's so fast, multi culti and moving, that to take a minute and actully think about the history here, what things used to be like during Pestalozzi, etc. might be impossible at all times, even if one wanted to. The sweet and genuine local things people notice, but the harshness of tradition, sometimes, just smacks you right in the face and the least expected moment. I am not saying it is wrong, I love traditions. It's just that practically, in real life, it's not a battle of concepts and cultures, really, it's a continuum where you try to even out some things to give a fair chance to some kids, and support other things to give a fair chance of kids who are from here and who should keep their genuineness and traditions. But classrooms are everybody's who is in it. Classroom does not belong only to the history of the country because we happen to be here. But also to those who are from elsewhere. Inclusion. And that can be said about communities, too.
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:20
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Re: Kids in blackface

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OK, so suppose you have kids come to class in blackface, and you explain that it is unacceptable and why, that even if it is in the best possible spirit it is still offensive and there's your lesson in cultural sensitivity for the day.

And these clever kids get home and do some Googling, and see the blackface of old minstrel shows, and then they see Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, with full approval of the NAACP, and just what are they supposed to think then? That one must not question things that are clearly questionable, that the fact that they were shot down and another is lauded by the very people who should be offended.... is what? Is the life lesson that life in fact is rarely fair? That would actually be a good lesson- but label it as such.
ah man... great minds do think alike...
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:21
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Re: Kids in blackface

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And I protest this being Yanks vs the rest, since I am far from one.

I tried to give an insight into a specific kind of work we do, where racism/genuineness and pc vs non pc are not just philosophical concepts to get excited over on some board, but very tangible situations with young beings waiting for your immediate reaction and how conditioned we might be to either be quiet or somewhat try to change things so everyone in the class is happy and respected. It can be intense for some people. Both kids and teachers. I think at the end of the day, people meet somewhere mid way. If there was a carnival and I took my class into streets of Geneva, I might feel very odd to actually lead a class with kids with faces painted black.
Ok, as Sandgrounder tried to explain you last time: You are jumping to conclusions.
We do not at all know for what reasons the kids dressed up. Implying that they do it for carnival, where it very likely becomes a not so respectful joke, is not really fair.
The thread had at least two examples of European cultural heritage (Sternsinger and the Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands) where kids blacken their face, pretend to be Africans and still treat them very respectfully.

I am not saying that it might be very questionable...but from what we know is the reaction of the OP and a couple of others here completely over the top. Any reference to burning crosses or the like is completely out of the Swiss reality.
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Old 29.05.2011, 02:39
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Re: Kids in blackface

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[OK, so suppose you have kids come to class in blackface, and you explain that it is unacceptable and why, that even if it is in the best possible spirit it is still offensive and there's your lesson in cultural sensitivity for the day.
See, I actually didn't say that. If they want to get silly in the class, I might even let them run around with whatever faces. When I would probably paint mine something, and others with something else.

It's the Geneva. The city with all the people in the streets. The UN, people from all over the world. And that's the thing. The analogy with further world than our little bucolic back yard. It's not to shame kids into some emotions. It's to make them aware of possible situations.

While we think it is ok to do whatever with our faces, the fact it symbolizes something to somebody else, is kinda important bit. And the fact US is far away, is completely irrelevant, since Geneva is probably even more uber pc than anything else. World we live in these days is bigger than CH, even here. I am not saying we shouldn't have kids celebrate cultural differences, but I would rather have them learn about other cultures, including the history of racial troubles what people might feel if they are faced with painted face, rather than simply have their faces painted, teens seem a tad old for that.

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And these clever kids get home and do some Googling, and see the blackface of old minstrel shows, and then they see Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, with full approval of the NAACP, and just what are they supposed to think then? That one must not question things that are clearly questionable, that the fact that they were shot down and another is lauded by the very people who should be offended.... is what? Is the life lesson that life in fact is rarely fair? That would actually be a good lesson- but label it as such.
They could Google all they want, it's what I allow in my classes under my watch that matters..I am not representing US, nor Yank films, nor US history. I would like to have them informed, that, if they leave the safety of their own school yard, they might get some serious looks. And maybe even more than that down town or Paquis.

I am all for genuineness, but why use kids who have no clue about what they are doing and what it may symbolize to try to change the status quo...I would rather educate them and probably tell them if they want to run around with some questionable outfit, they might do it without me, hahahah.


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Yeah, rite, like you were gona come home tonight anyways ...

I gota cram. This is taking too much effort. And, I ain't even Yank.

This is one big Eminem thread.
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  #319  
Old 29.05.2011, 02:49
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Re: Kids in blackface

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OK, so suppose you have kids come to class in blackface, and you explain that it is unacceptable and why, that even if it is in the best possible spirit it is still offensive and there's your lesson in cultural sensitivity for the day.

And these clever kids get home and do some Googling, and see 1.) the blackface of old minstrel shows, and then they see 2.) Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder, with full approval of the NAACP, and just what are they supposed to think then? That one must not question things that are clearly questionable, that the fact that they were shot down and another is lauded by the very people who should be offended.... is what? Is the life lesson that life in fact is rarely fair? That would actually be a good lesson- but label it as such.




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So, all of ya'll have been saying that you don't see a difference between image 1 and image 2?


1.) (image found here)



2.) (image found here)


I have to say, I've not asked any of my friends what they thought of RDJr's role in Tropic Thunder, seeing how the entire movie was chock full of ridiculous stereotypes (here is the - also stereotypical - white "fat cat producer" played by Tom Cruise) and most (all!) "understand" that the movie is a comedy about such movies and the stereotypes in them, not making fun of the people who may or may not be like that but of movies that portray people like that.

Then again, most of my friends r smrt.


Anyhow, by her usage of "blackface" to describe the "makeup" AND the usage of "caricature" to further describe them today, I'm leaning more toward the girls being dressed like image 1 than image 2. To me, to see that, it is understandable to be shocked and dismayed.

BUT, as I wasn't there (and neither was anyone else besides the OP), we don't really know.
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  #320  
Old 29.05.2011, 02:51
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Re: Kids in blackface

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I am not saying that it might be very questionable...
Exactly.

I am not saying OP didn't overreact, I am saying I understand why she might have a problem with it. We do not know why kids dressed the way they did, but obviously OP didn't like the stereotyping. I do not think it would be a big deal for me, but honestly, understand why OP probably disliked it.
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