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  #181  
Old 24.06.2011, 09:35
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

The reality is, there are a bunch of brainfarts I have also experienced here that wouldn't make me question OP's story at all.

In fact, if it was wee kids, tots, I wouldn't have liked it either. It's not the lurking pedo that would worry me the most who might run after the kid, since the three teachers would probably do all within their powers to tackle him down. It's the message it sends, we strip kids in public, as if we don't care how ok the kiddos feel being exposed since we assume all kids love being without clothes and all parents are a ok with it. Kids do not know better. They make no difference between public and private, safe place. They are not aware of respect to their bodies, privacy, being discrete, protection, self awareness. I know some read it as fantastic and let's keep these adult concepts for laters. But no. Middle ground in letting them have fun and exposing them to public eye would be nice. Not making them freak out but still aware of possible consequences, which kindy kids already respond to. Naked in the park is not middle ground.

We don't let other beings run naked in public places, those would also prefer their clothes off, who I see on a train with me every morning, their care takers keep an eye on them being protected and functioning within their powers, etc. I know this is far fetched comparison, but those people have zero awareness of how privacy is sometimes a mode of self protection.

I totally see the points of those who come from countries who have taken this protection too far, because of whatever reasons. Paranoia, whatever else resonated in this thread. I get it. It is rather sad. But we won't stop this, we can slow it down by being reasonable and aware, sure.

But let me offer a point of view from a culture that used to be even far more safe there here, until very recently, and then borders opened, and then things changed so fast that it would have been tragic (and it was, a couple of times) if the security measures and people's mindsets haven't adjusted with a speed of light. Society is changing, hanging onto an image that might be dated isn't going to protect the kids.

Disliking the idea of naked little kids in public places without their parents around to assess how comfortable their kid is with this and them being ok with it, does not have to do anything with being paranoid.

I think this thread is fabulous, really. Things like that need to be discussed. Makes people soak up different ideas, be ok with other things, maybe reinforce their views, whatever. It does not say things are done poorly here at all. If the teachers really thought it was a good idea, bless them, since they just wanted the kids happy, according to their believes. But, I did want to take time to state here, that it might not be good idea to just shrug it off, or see this behavior as a proof of CH being the pristine, untouched place on earth.
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Last edited by MusicChick; 24.06.2011 at 10:59.
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  #182  
Old 24.06.2011, 09:45
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

I would imagine the kids that were comfortable with it took off their clothes, the ones that weren't comfortable simply didn't.

I think I missed the bit within the thread that said the teacher forcibly stripped them all regardless of whether they were uncomfortable or not.

These threads concerning children often descend into a complete farce fuelled by overactive imaginations filling in the gaps with stuff that they can't possibly know to have happened.

It's like some odd game of chinese whispers.

The fact that some of the kids might have ditched their clothes so they didn't get wet in the fountains (they are aged 5-7, after all so can make up their own minds) is obviously far too pedestrian and banal for some and doesn't provide sufficient opportunity to lord about "the society in Switzerland".
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  #183  
Old 24.06.2011, 11:04
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

Absolutely. And some do not consider it banal at all. Since if my 4 year old child even with me, asked me in a public park, if she can ditch her clothes off to dive into a public fountain, guess what my answer would be, without getting into long drawn discussions about society, safety, parental paranoia, anglophone world and overbearing thoughts...

Thanks, Steph, for well thought out, caring posts. Breaks my heart to think about that little girl.
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  #184  
Old 24.06.2011, 11:10
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Absolutely. And some do not consider it banal at all. Since if my 4 year old child even with me, asked me in a public park, if she can ditch her clothes off to dive into a public fountain, guess what my answer would be, without getting into long drawn discussions about society, safety, parental paranoia, anglophone world and overbearing thoughts...

Thanks, Steph, for well thought out, caring posts. Breaks my heart to think about that little girl.
When I was around 8-9 years old, we went for hollidays in Guadaloupe.

We were on a beach where women could sun bath with only the bottom on. My mom did and I refuse to take it off. I was too uncomfortable.

Mind you, I had nothing to show or be shy off.... It is just how I am.
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  #185  
Old 24.06.2011, 11:13
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

Very interesting debate.

If we go further into the 'acceptability of bodily exposure' perhaps we can compare it to a field trip at a north american school where they are going to an amusement park (which has a water park) and the supervisor wants all to change into a bathing suit to go into the water park. Some families from perhaps other cultures are not accepting of their children to be in public wearing nothing but a bathing suit.

The permission form would state that they are going to an amusement park which would include swimming. The parents, in the NA culture, should assume that the children will possible have to wear a bathing suit.

Here in Switzerland, when a field trip includes water fun, it can be assumed that children (some) will strip down to the birthday suit to enjoy the water.
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  #186  
Old 24.06.2011, 11:21
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Here in Switzerland, when a field trip includes water fun, it can be assumed that children (some) will strip down to the birthday suit to enjoy the water.
Another point to this might be the gender of the child. It seems (from reading here) that people with daughters are a lot more wary of them taking their clothes off and seem to be hypersensitive to the possibility that someone with less than honorable intentions is lurking nearby.

The parents I know with boys seem to give much less thought about them running about undressed than parents with girls.

I guess that's a whole other gender issue, though.
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  #187  
Old 24.06.2011, 11:26
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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When I was around 8-9 years old, we went for hollidays in Guadaloupe.

We were on a beach where women could sun bath with only the bottom on. My mom did and I refuse to take it off. I was too uncomfortable.

Mind you, I had nothing to show or be shy off.... It is just how I am.
We all have different ways, it's pointless to point fingures at some to say you prude foreigners, take your goggles off and enjoy the culture. Since, honestly, I am the oposite of what you said, I guess culturally conditioned. So, if I was to take off my "foreign googgles" as some people insinuate, we would all run around pretty exposed, if you ask me, hahaha. Not really the naturalists German style, but quite lax.

This has nothing to do with understanding that some people prefer to keep discrete, irrespectively of cultures, and that might be kids, too. Some parents prefer their kindy kids dressed in public places (for whatever reasons, locals as well), that's why I also have a kiddo in a tank under her t shirt, so the tshirt can be taken off, and she has a pair of super light tiny shorts in her kindy back pack with her. I have also said to her, if a teacher takes off something and you don't feel like it, tell her. If you are cold during your naps, ask for another blanket. If you are hot, take off what is comfortable, but since she is not used to being in public park naked, I am not worried about her not making the distinction between an appropriate place and inappropriate one.

I did go into great lengths to explain certain views I have, not because I want to dwelve on details, but because things might not be as simplistic as to say, kids in park want to have fun, why not let them naked. Things have consequences, teachers have responsibilities, parents want to feel ok, this society is really not that different, in good and bad ways, than most of the stuff we know.

It's true that things can be a lot more complicated, ie parents not even want to have kids in bathing suits and trunks at all, which I do have experiences with, too. But, if there is will, there is a way, and in my world, things are always pre arranged in a sensible, practical and dignified way, so the school, kids and parents are fine.
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  #188  
Old 24.06.2011, 13:12
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

I think there's too much energy being wasted on hypotheticals and inconsistencies in this thread. I've come across a lot of school outings in my years in this country. Both in Zurich and in Vaud. Personally I have never seen a teacher-led, out-of-school group running around naked in public spaces. Either in full sun, or in the shade.

So, I can only assume that tots running around naked in the public spaces is not an endemic feature of school life in this country.

What I have seen is kids in orderly lines, fully clothed, holding hands in twos with their little reflective bands on, a teacher at the front and a teacher at the end of the line. In other words, teachers exercising their duty of care for the welfare of the kids under their supervision in a responsible and caring way.
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  #189  
Old 24.06.2011, 14:23
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Another point to this might be the gender of the child. It seems (from reading here) that people with daughters are a lot more wary of them taking their clothes off and seem to be hypersensitive to the possibility that someone with less than honorable intentions is lurking nearby.

The parents I know with boys seem to give much less thought about them running about undressed than parents with girls.

I guess that's a whole other gender issue, though.

I have a little girl and having just been at a wedding where she kept pulling her dress over her head, I doubt I'll be too fussed if she wants to run around naked in a fountain at a park. I would however, prefer that she did it when I was with her......
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  #190  
Old 24.06.2011, 15:22
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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I would however, prefer that she did it when I was with her......
Woohoo, I'll be sure to bring the camera.
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  #191  
Old 24.06.2011, 15:27
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Woohoo, I'll be sure to bring the camera.
You can get arrested for that you know
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Old 24.06.2011, 16:18
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Had any of the parents, Swiss or NOT Swiss, have complained afterwards, the counter-question would immediately have been "but were you not informed" . If you, for example as a teacher, send a non-registered A-letter two days before an event, and have a copy, it serves as proof that you informed the parents in question. This already was so when letters were done with the original on top and several copy-sheets with a carbon paper on top of each (into the 1970ies).

And, as the parent in question was in such a case NOT in a position the evidence that his/her feelings/interests/belonging got really and directly damaged, there would be no legal claim. To claim that your feelings got damaged by the idea that you child was ..... etc, is no basis for ANY legal procedure.
information is not sufficient, parents have to SIGN...other than that is NOT sufficient and is NOT enough as proof...sorry
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Old 24.06.2011, 16:22
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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information is not sufficient, parents have to SIGN...other than that is NOT sufficient and is NOT enough as proof...sorry
Says whom?
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  #194  
Old 24.06.2011, 16:31
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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You can get arrested for that you know
Totally worthed!

(it is sexy mimi we are talking about...)
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Old 24.06.2011, 16:44
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Says whom?
It's rule of the school, I checked it with our school before my son started...and they told me that it's like that nowadays, can't speak for private schools.

But it totally makes sense anything else is rubbish and useless....has to be signed by the parents...
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Old 26.06.2011, 10:24
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

It's good to know these technicalities.

And it is really good to have a debate about these things, hope OP has a clear view of the fact that it is not so common here. I doubt she approves with what she saw, I wouldn't have either, bunch of posters here.

We surely do not need any generic statements about CH society at all, but if a member comes with something they want to vent about, why push on her mob mentality style, tell her how wrong she is for disapproving with something that bugged her, get all personal, yady ya, since Complaint Corner is exactly for what OP did.
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Old 26.06.2011, 10:52
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

Ten pages of discussion about something somebody thinks to have seen. How does the OP knows that it was a kindergarten? How does the OP knows the adults were teachers? Did she ask them? And if she did why didn't she ask why the children were naked?
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Old 26.06.2011, 11:13
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Ten pages of discussion about something somebody thinks to have seen. How does the OP knows that it was a kindergarten? How does the OP knows the adults were teachers? Did she ask them? And if she did why didn't she ask why the children were naked?
Honey,

This is an internet forum, people talk!

Need a topic and here we go! Normal, healthy!
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Old 26.06.2011, 15:01
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Ten pages of discussion about something somebody thinks to have seen. How does the OP knows that it was a kindergarten? How does the OP knows the adults were teachers? Did she ask them? And if she did why didn't she ask why the children were naked?
Start thread with subject of young children - add words such as "disgusting", "shocking" "Swiss" and liberal anecdotes of "back home..." with a few fiery examples of putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 387.

Allow to stew for a few pages to blow it all out of proportion then allow thread to die.

Sorry you missed it - there'll be another one along shortly...
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Old 26.06.2011, 16:36
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Start thread with subject of young children - add words such as "disgusting", "shocking" "Swiss" and liberal anecdotes of "back home..." with a few fiery examples of putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 387.

Allow to stew for a few pages to blow it all out of proportion then allow thread to die.

Sorry you missed it - there'll be another one along shortly...
I can't wait.

Any decent forum would have a button to auto-generate them.
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