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Old 22.06.2011, 10:40
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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This morning at chinagarten, I was totally shocked and disgusted with the group of young boys and girls went totally naked running and playing around at the playground and the park. What really shocked me further was these group of young kindergarten kids were brought by two or three teachers to the park. And these teachers allowed them to go around naked!! These teachers supposed to be educating the young children, and should also understand that there are such paedophiles around, and they should keep the kids from such harm. Where is the morale here? I wonder what would the parents feel if they see their kids were running around naked like this??
Or tell me, does the society in Switzerland allows this to happen?
I've read this post again and, sorry but I am having trouble seeing it in a real situation. These "Kindergartners" are between 5 & 7 years old (or did the OP mean "Kinderkrippe"?) and it is not the nearest, nor most convenient playground in that area to the surrounding three Kindergartens.

In the times I have been at the Chinagarten playground (umm... countless) I have never seen any kids from any of the surrounding Kindergartens (i.e. 5-7 year olds) there during class time. A couple of nearby Krippes occasionally visit but even on the hottest days they've had shorts, t-shirts and hats on and there is a distinct smell of suncream in the air.

I have borrowed adrianlondon's spidey-sense and it is tingling...
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  #82  
Old 22.06.2011, 10:44
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Paedophiles will still snap pictures regardless of whether its the parents or teachers watching over them. No?
I do not think that really is the issue. If I found out my child was taken to a public area and was let to strip, and the area is very open to public, like parks, etc. I wouldn't be comfortable at all. One of the reason is, we are a super tiny community, so I would prefer people who know me, my child, etc. not to have access to seeing my child naked when I am not around (who is in creche but looks like a 7yr old, due to her large Yank genes). If I go to a lake, and my child is 2, no big deal, since I am with her, etc. If my child is 4 and a lot more independent of me, still in creche, yes I wouldn't have liked it, me not being around and adults responsible for her safety allowing her to strip in public place where our neighbors and friends and her play buddies walk to do their shopping etc., weird. On top, my child is very private, she wouldn't ever do it without being forced. So if she did, I would have known it was mandatory.

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Thats why I dont understand her issue. If she is that paranoid, best to chain the kids by yourside 24/7.
I do not think OP is saying this at all. Descretion comes to mind, and privacy, and some kids are naturally that way. To say all kids love to have their bits hang, very not true. I woudln't want her to be shamed into taking her clothes off and feeling awkward. If you do not want to walk around naked, you might have reasons completely unrelated to society brainwashing you into this mindset. Kids have their own.
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  #83  
Old 22.06.2011, 10:45
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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It is changing. This kind of parents are now majority. To me, it is neither a bad nor a good news, it's just an evolution that means more paperwork for teachers. Is that paperwork worth it? Sometimes, definitely yes! Othertimes, it is not. Consequence 1: majority of parents don't trust school, majority of teachers don't trust parents.

From my experience, and that only, so maybe yours is totally different, there are less days out in middle and high-schools than in the 90ies. I can even see a trend in the last ten years: teachers just don't even plan field trips anymore if it is not a whole school "my-director-backs-me-up" situation. Parents want their children to be absolutely safe in school, teachers want to be safe at their work place. Fair enough.
My own experience coming from the same country as the OP is that permission slips have to be signed if we were to be taken out of the classroom.

I concede that whilst its nice to be informed as a parent, about what my kid is about to get up to in school, I just think that the increasing paranoia and over protectiveness of kids is really stifling.

Now I am just waiting for some smug parent to throw me the line: "wait till you're a parent!".
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Old 22.06.2011, 10:53
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Now I am just waiting for some smug parent to throw me the line: "wait till you're a parent!".
You can always answer that your parents were parents too and that you survived wonderfully well even if they never had to sign a permission slip.

My parents would have consider the school to be incompetent if they had to sign for that: to them, either the school knows what it does and does it, or it doen't and doesn't do it. This competence should in their eyes not depend on double checking parents. There was a serious accident once, nobody though of giving the school the blame for an accident. If someone live in a mental world where accidents don't happen, then any kind of school activity outside classroom is impossible, even having a break in the school-yeard (and many other things in life, but let's stay on topic).
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Old 22.06.2011, 10:53
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

Hei, I was a kid in the 80's an NO teatcher would even dare to take kids on a field trip without a writen consent of the parent... I don't get that sarcasm...

But rules changed, without a doubt. My mother (teatcher) used to take her kids at least 4 times a year on school trips (to see a play, some heritage monument, etc.). She hasn't done it in 5 years though, because of the freaking absurd insurance rules and over-protective reaction of nowadays parents (and the gigantic problems portuguese teatchers are facing, but that's a whole different story).

I went to a farm with the school to see where eggs and milk come from at the age of 3.

When my mother asks her 9 year old idiots students where milk comes from, they in all innocent answer "supermarket". They get a shock when she shows them cow titties...
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Old 22.06.2011, 10:54
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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I do not think OP is saying this at all. Descretion comes to mind, and privacy, and some kids are naturally that way. To say all kids love to have their bits hang, very not true. I woudln't want her to be shamed into taking her clothes off and feeling awkward. If you do not want to walk around naked, you might have reasons completely unrelated to society brainwashing you into this mindset. Kids have their own.
Come on MC, go re-read what I wrote.

I said that people are more relaxed about being naked here - I never said that ALL kids love to have their bits hanging. There is a difference.

Anyway, I think we are going more and more off tangent. We dont know if the kids were made to strip.
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Old 22.06.2011, 10:56
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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When my mother asks her 9 year old idiots students where milk comes from, they in all innocent answer "supermarket". They get a shock when she shows them cow titties...
Yeah, but I'm certain, that the same 9 year old could install an antivirus on any computer faster, than you can say Mcaffee.

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 22.06.2011 at 19:29.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:00
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Hei, I was a kid in the 80's an NO teatcher would even dare to take kids on a field trip without a writen consent of the parent...
Me too. But all my school wanted from my parents was the cash to pay for the bus, entrance fee and the teachers' beers 'n' fags.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:02
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Yeah, but I'm certain, that the same 9 year old could install an antivirus on any computer before you could say Mcaffee.
If you want to compare skills, then compare two skills, not one knowledge and a skill.

Children can now install computer antivirus - can't milk a cow
That is an improvement.

Children make the wrong assumption that milk comes from industry - don't know about cows
That is ignorance.

I don't mind dealing with both and I definitely praise the younger generation for their skills the older don't have. But I still have to be a teacher that makes sure ignorance is not seen as an asset in life.

EDIT Jargon notice:
Wissen/savoir, I call it knowledge in English, not sure what word English teachers use.
Fertigkeit/compétence, I call it skills, I have seen that somewhere, I think it's the correct word.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:02
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

My parents were told what kids are doing, signing a slip meant they read it. Not for safety reasons, really, or responsibility, but for simply respecting the rights of parents to knowing where their kid is at certain time, with whom, etc. It's also for practical reasons, quite often a kid wouldn't return back to school if it was very far from home, but parents would pick him/her up from the field trip, instead of picking up back at school.

Cmon, so because we disagree with OP's attitude we now start accusing her of making stuff up? Why shoot the messanger? Should she have taken pics? Isn't that illegal? If you disagree, you disagree, no point in going after her...Some people will simply expect school to promote privacy and safety, so what if happens to be in a different way than in our cultures. I for one come from culture that could care less for finicky things, privacy, etc. but can totally see the point of OP. And people who disagree with her, too. But why pick at her? Tell her she made stuff up, simply because we can't take her opinion? Makes me laugh...
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:04
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Yeah, but I'm certain, that the same 9 year old could install an antivirus on any computer before you could say Mcaffee.
Mcaffee? What's that? I think that is somewhere in the list of forbidden words together with Mackintosh and Norton Antivirus...

I would vote on cow titties instead of computers though. We all know computers are evil! xD

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Me too. But all my school wanted from my parents was the cash to pay for the bus, entrance fee and the teachers' beers 'n' fags.
Hei, considering what teatcherS have to be put through, I'd pay them a beer anytime. MusicChick included
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:04
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

if a consent form is meant so that the teachers know that the parents know about the day out, it's fine. Our school let us sign at the beginning of the year if we are ok with school outings. Now they go out every day to the forest and last week the Kindergarten went on a train to Einsiedeln where they hiked, made fire and grilled sausages. No accident besides some very wobbly kids who almost fell from the train because they were tired.. No consent form, just a form to tell them if I would pick up from the train directly or later from school.

Accidents do happen but I would only sue the school if it became apparent that the teacher has been negligent. The advantage is that because the kids go out every day they are used to walk on the street together, cross streets together and they know not to pull sh*t when doing it. Kids who will never come out of their classrooms will eventually have a higher chance of accidents when they get older go to secondary school further away from home and suddenly have to be part of the outside society (like bike to school or take a tram to school).
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:05
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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If you want to compare skills, then compare two skills, not one knowledge and a skill.

Children can now install computer antivirus - can't milk a cow
That is an improvement.

Children make the wrong assumption that milk comes from industry - don't know about cows
That is ignorance.

I don't mind dealing with both and I definitely praise the younger generation for their skills the older don't have. But I still have to be a teacher that makes sure ignorance is not seen as an asset in life.
Well, I'd rather be ignorant (I know, this totally comes to many of you as a surprise ) but with a skill that is usefull nowadays, than knowing how many different types of Butterflies there are in the world.
(plus it was just a joke )
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:11
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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(plus it was just a joke )
From you, I almost guessed it, but I wanted to answer because I hear parents at parent conference day telling me this kind of non-sense in a very serious tone.
Education is not about choosing and picking justabout anything: Knowledge and skills are a must. Not an alternative. You can pick and choose the domains/areas to learn both. Among other things that belong to education.
I know, education is a lot of work for everybody. Nice would be if more people knew.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:16
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Come on MC, go re-read what I wrote.

I said that people are more relaxed about being naked here - I never said that ALL kids love to have their bits hanging. There is a difference.

Anyway, I think we are going more and more off tangent. We dont know if the kids were made to strip.
Absolutely. I am just trying to illustrate, that it might not be as easy as to assume because OP might be from an uptight country, or be a paranoid parent, she disagrees with what she saw. I think we might project too much. Just like assuming those teachers forced the kiddos to be naked.

I come from a place way more lax than here, stripped my child more for practical reasons than the perceived desires that kids might want to be naked and "enjoy" themselves, as somebody else mentioned, yet still get the gripe OP expressed. Since if it happened here, I wouldn't probably so keen, either.

Hell, I can't even get my kiddo get rid of socks, when it's too hot.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:16
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

the kids are more right than you give them credit for, the milk they drink is very far away from the stuff that comes from the cow, in fact, the "milk" they drink is more or less "produced" in the factory but we're getting off topic

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If you want to compare skills, then compare two skills, not one knowledge and a skill.

Children can now install computer antivirus - can't milk a cow
That is an improvement.

Children make the wrong assumption that milk comes from industry - don't know about cows
That is ignorance.

I don't mind dealing with both and I definitely praise the younger generation for their skills the older don't have. But I still have to be a teacher that makes sure ignorance is not seen as an asset in life.

EDIT Jargon notice:
Wissen/savoir, I call it knowledge in English, not sure what word English teachers use.
Fertigkeit/compétence, I call it skills, I have seen that somewhere, I think it's the correct word.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:18
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Hell, I can't even get my kiddo get rid of socks, when it's too hot.
I rather get naked and don't get rid of my socks either I'm like Milou: no one can get me away from my little fluffy pink sock

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Old 22.06.2011, 11:19
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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From you, I almost guessed it, but I wanted to answer because I hear parents at parent conference day telling me this kind of non-sense in a very serious tone.
Education is not about choosing and picking justabout anything: Knowledge and skills are a must. Not an alternative. You can pick and choose the domains/areas to learn both. Among other things that belong to education.
I know, education is a lot of work for everybody. Nice would be if more people knew.
I must say, everytime I read your posts, you remind me of Plato's Republic.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:20
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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My parents were told what kids are doing, signing a slip meant they read it. Not for safety reasons, really, or responsibility, but for simply respecting the rights of parents to knowing where their kid is at certain time, with whom, etc.
Absolutely right, but many parents consider that as a legal document to be sent to lawyers as soon as an accident happens.

On a general note, I would advise to be very careful with the use of the word "negligent". First because it is a legal term so it needs a court to use it correctly. Secondly because I can assure you that it is not always possible to get truely safe conditions approved by the school and still have to carry on the excursion. When an accident happen, the teacher depends totally on the school willingness to help him/her, otherwise, the teacher ends up taking the whole blame for a situation he had no controle/authority about in the first place as he/she is not the decision maker about the conditions of the excursions. It is far safer for teachers to give up the concept of trust all together than putting their professional future into the hands of people who have all interest to make him/her the sole responsible person, thus "negligent".

I have seen too much in schools behind the scene... teachers stand no chance. Sorry for that.
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Old 22.06.2011, 11:22
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Re: Naked kids at the park, brought by the teachers!

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Me too. But all my school wanted from my parents was the cash to pay for the bus, entrance fee and the teachers' beers 'n' fags.
I never realised you were at the same school as me...
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