Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 02.07.2011, 21:32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Solothurn
Posts: 88
Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 49 Times in 24 Posts
maxvoegtli has earned some respectmaxvoegtli has earned some respect
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

All I can say, is that welcome to Switzerland. In Switzerland women have a clear role. Many have a normal childhood like any other girl in the world, they'll go to unversity start a career. At the beginning of the career thats when things begin to change. It is clear that a swiss women is expected marry and once they marry only work for a little while longer, they are expected to have kids and raise the kids. and many swiss women go along with this there are those that buck the trend and don't, this is increasing now adays.
Its built deeply into swiss society and thinking swiss do not like change thats why it took so long for us to give them the vote. Women didn't get the vote in Apenzel until 1991 and that was only because the Supreme court told them they had to. When women first got the vote a poll was taken and it was discovered that a majority of women didn't want the vote and 40 years later little has changed. There simply is a clear divide.
I think this is changing though especialy with the new generation of young ladies the generation that travels more and sees more of the world and will no longer accept the status quo this of course will be met with fierce resistance in Switzlernad
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 02.07.2011, 22:49
poptart's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,785
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,013 Times in 1,242 Posts
poptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond reputepoptart has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
I might be wrong here but I think stay at home mothers might take exception to the rather negative assumption they "veg" at home whilst taking care of their children and home. That might have got my own mother rather aggressively smoothing her apron hem.

I think staying at home with the kids and looking after the home is, at times, probably more difficult than sitting behind a desk dealing with prima dona fund managers.

Although, I could be wrong...
It is more difficult as, especially if you are educated, you get neither the respect nor the income for doing a more difficult job. I stayed at home for the first 18 months and went back to work for both the paycheck and for the blissfully private moments I could have in the office loo. It's a conflict between wanting to be a good mother and also not wanting to be a dependent doormat that being a SAHM seems to be in the 21st century. I love my child, but M is for mother not for maid. My own mother was a career woman and I looked up to her, respected her for being educated, strong and independent. I look at my sisters, two of whom stayed at home and their children treat them with far less respect than we did our own mother and the kids of my other sister who has also worked after having kids. We tend to value the elusive and those who need us less than those who live only for our own needs, e.g. SAHMs. It's a complicated and an unpleasant truth.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank poptart for this useful post:
  #123  
Old 03.07.2011, 00:17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CH
Posts: 452
Groaned at 9 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 648 Times in 282 Posts
Laertes has a reputation beyond reputeLaertes has a reputation beyond reputeLaertes has a reputation beyond reputeLaertes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

The main reason why voting rights were granted to women that lately in Switzerland is that Switzerland was not involved in the two world wars.

The absence of men made it necessary to integrate women into jobs which previously were exclusively done by men, which then led to a widespread acceptance of women's rights.

This conflict further led to the collapse of most European states. (WW I: Germany, Austria ; WW II: Germany, Italy, France, Benelux, Denmark, Eastern Europe) which thereafter had to be rebuild and in this process were "modernized". Although the UK was never invaded its society was largely affected by the two world wars.

In Switzerland on the other hand there have not been any rapid changes taking place since the founding of the confederation in 1848. Thus Switzerlandĺs "conservatism" can be seen as the result of the design of the country's political system (which in large parts is a copy of the American system) which does not encourage rapid changes and the luck of Switzerland not to be involved into the big conflicts of the 20th century.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Laertes for this useful post:
  #124  
Old 03.07.2011, 11:02
R÷schti's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tessin
Posts: 170
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 183 Times in 70 Posts
R÷schti has an excellent reputationR÷schti has an excellent reputationR÷schti has an excellent reputationR÷schti has an excellent reputation
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
The main reason why voting rights were granted to women that lately in Switzerland is that Switzerland was not involved in the two world wars.

The absence of men made it necessary to integrate women into jobs which previously were exclusively done by men, which then led to a widespread acceptance of women's rights.
This is an interesting point of view, thanks for sharing it.

I only wanted to add that in Britain the movement for women's suffrage started as early as the XIX century, so a long time before the two world wars.
But I think your reasoning is correct, and that the reason why women's suffrage was an important political topic so early in Britain is probably because of industrial revolution and the fact that women were already largely employed in factories (while in many other countries the massive employment of women in factory did not occur until the world wars).
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank R÷schti for this useful post:
  #125  
Old 03.07.2011, 14:06
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Basel
Posts: 9
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 15 Times in 6 Posts
Schweizerkaas has no particular reputation at present
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
The main reason why voting rights were granted to women that lately in Switzerland is that Switzerland was not involved in the two world wars.

The absence of men made it necessary to integrate women into jobs which previously were exclusively done by men, which then led to a widespread acceptance of women's rights.

This conflict further led to the collapse of most European states. (WW I: Germany, Austria ; WW II: Germany, Italy, France, Benelux, Denmark, Eastern Europe) which thereafter had to be rebuild and in this process were "modernized". Although the UK was never invaded its society was largely affected by the two world wars.

In Switzerland on the other hand there have not been any rapid changes taking place since the founding of the confederation in 1848. Thus Switzerlandĺs "conservatism" can be seen as the result of the design of the country's political system (which in large parts is a copy of the American system) which does not encourage rapid changes and the luck of Switzerland not to be involved into the big conflicts of the 20th century.

This is absolutely spot on; as R÷schti also says, the rise in women's employment in the industrial revolution sparked suffrage, but it was women doing the same jobs as men during the wars which led to a wider acceptance of women's equality in society (that's not to say that there wasn't still much to be improved afterwards).

Especially after WWI, Britain, France, Germany et al. were all faced with a 'missing generation' of young men, leading to a rise in the number of unmarried women; so not only were there fewer men to take on certain jobs, but many women had to find work to support themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 06.07.2011, 11:25
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Canton Solothurn
Posts: 38
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 47 Times in 15 Posts
silkweaver is considered knowledgeablesilkweaver is considered knowledgeablesilkweaver is considered knowledgeable
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Today a went to see my mother, born in 1936 and showed her your statement. She nearly broke down with laughing and probably is still recovering. May I ask where you grew up? My mother ist quite positiv that she never knew any women who had to get the permission of her husband to work outside the house. To have silly laws and to follow them are two different things.
Altough it's OT and I think of little interest to the discussion: Canton of Zurich. In the 80ies. And yes - of course, having a law doesn't mean, one has to follow it. If the family's father is a patriarchal midgewit, then the law backs him. And as you can read, my father was such a person.

But if it consoles you - my grandmother (born 1926) was always saying that my mother married a patriarch, and that she should remember her own strength.

Back more onto topic:
True - Switzerland wasn't that involved into WW1 / 2, and usually quick change is nurtured by dramatic changes (war/revolution).
If we look at France, the revolution of 1789 gave the women's rights a boost, only to be curbed down again during the reign of terror (early 1790ies) and later by the Code NapolÚon.
Not every dramatic situation inspires change what last. Sometimes it needs to be worked on again and again.

The change to a working woman and being accepted as a working woman was a slow one in the early 20th century. Being a single working woman was even more challenging (I recommend the read of Colette's letters on that subject, as she was a single working woman after her divorce, though she apparently is rather a drama queen at times, judging by her letters and her biography), as being handicapped in renting a nice flat, having a fair price with luggage porters, a good seat in a restaurant - because rank and social status were defined by the husband.
With WW1 and the loss of many men's life the change became quicker - it's even visible in fashion (less back closures on frocks, more blouse & skirt combos even for fashionable ladies). The years between the wars were both - economical challenging and despairing as well as offering a microclimate for free spirits to grow.
The mid 30ies brought again a movement of "women at home" "home-and fatherland" - while in the late 30ies and especially in the war years women were a sought after workforce. In any country, including Switzerland.
In the 50ies the movement went back to home - "have children" "take care of your family" - "fit, proper, groomed" - one just needs to read women's magazines of the 50ies and the massive propaganda building up social pressure and expectations.

After 68 change became more steady. Not as dramatically as in the "zic-zac-pattern" of the previous decades, but steadily going upward.

So - end of the historical discourse (better don't get me started on fashion history, I'd prove to be able to chew your ears off).
If anyone is interested in a good read (though admittedly, a bit dry) on women in Switzerland during the wars and the years in between, I have some nice books to recommend (though in German)
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 06.07.2011, 14:00
tearley's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lausanne (Vaud)
Posts: 428
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 409 Times in 190 Posts
tearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputation
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

I guess sort of on a related note, (gender roles in Switzerland, that is) my husband asked if it was possible to get a different washing machine time (ours is Wednesdays from 1 pm to 5 pm!) from the "concierge"--a housewife who lives in our building. He explained that he works and can't take off every Wed. afternoon to do the laundry. Her response (in French): "Where, exactly, is your wife??" (Like I don't have a job either, or even if I didn't, what year is this???)
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 08.07.2011, 05:56
MusicChick's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 17,488
Groaned at 414 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 20,428 Times in 10,577 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
...what year is this???..
That's a wrong question. "Where are we?" would be the correct one..

They stereotypes, despite the formal laws probably being closer now to the rest of the world than before, are still pretty painful. It's the people's mindset that needs to be changed. And not only local ones, mind you.

Just tell the concierge (the same wench???) that on wednesday, you are in your Migros homemaking course.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #129  
Old 09.07.2011, 01:20
tearley's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lausanne (Vaud)
Posts: 428
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 409 Times in 190 Posts
tearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputation
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
That's a wrong question. "Where are we?" would be the correct one..

They stereotypes, despite the formal laws probably being closer now to the rest of the world than before, are still pretty painful. It's the people's mindset that needs to be changed. And not only local ones, mind you.

Just tell the concierge (the same wench???) that on wednesday, you are in your Migros homemaking course.
Yes, this is the same, famous little pearl that vexes me Today, she asked us when we are getting kick stands for the bicycles and if we are integrating. Then, she finished it up by asking me how learning French is coming along in a super slow and loud voice. Geez.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank tearley for this useful post:
  #130  
Old 09.07.2011, 02:00
tearley's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lausanne (Vaud)
Posts: 428
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 409 Times in 190 Posts
tearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputation
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Actually, I think I'll be taking this interesting course offered by Migros:
http://www.ecole-club.ch/sparten/ang...rch=1&cid=1475

Le Pole Dance (reality is better than anything you could make up!)
"...la pole dance associe renforcement musculaire, assouplissement, endurance et grÔce en dansant avec une barre verticale."
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 09.07.2011, 05:58
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Haha! I'll be careful who I sit beside the next time I ride a train or tram and decide on an impromptu perfume top-up.
If you knew how mind numbingly painful it is when people spray perfume in closed spaces like trains you wouldn't even joke about it. I don't know how to explain but I can be seriously incapacitated by people who use perfume on trains as happened recently on the train from Manchester to London.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank the_clangers for this useful post:
  #132  
Old 09.07.2011, 10:37
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Penin
Posts: 3,518
Groaned at 43 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 7,410 Times in 2,314 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
If you knew how mind numbingly painful it is when people spray perfume in closed spaces like trains you wouldn't even joke about it. I don't know how to explain but I can be seriously incapacitated by people who use perfume on trains as happened recently on the train from Manchester to London.
OT, ok, but I was married to such a woman for several decades. When she put on her WMD before leaving the house, the dogs went hiding in the basement. One of our kids had permanent asthma issues, but she wouldn't ease the chemical warfare even a tiny bit. He immediately and completely recovered after moving out.

Talk about second hand smoking...
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 09.07.2011, 10:48
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
It is more difficult as, especially if you are educated, you get neither the respect nor the income for doing a more difficult job. I stayed at home for the first 18 months and went back to work for both the paycheck and for the blissfully private moments I could have in the office loo. It's a conflict between wanting to be a good mother and also not wanting to be a dependent doormat that being a SAHM seems to be in the 21st century. I love my child, but M is for mother not for maid. My own mother was a career woman and I looked up to her, respected her for being educated, strong and independent. I look at my sisters, two of whom stayed at home and their children treat them with far less respect than we did our own mother and the kids of my other sister who has also worked after having kids. We tend to value the elusive and those who need us less than those who live only for our own needs, e.g. SAHMs. It's a complicated and an unpleasant truth.

I am sorry to disagree here.

You don't get more respect from your kids because you go to work, you get respect from your kids because you teach them.

My mom stayed at home and I would have never dared to be disrespectful to her. And even with her being at home, I was not free of chores and responsabilities. I had to help in the house and I had to be careful to keep things clean and tiddy by respect of her hard work. I also learned to be thankful for what she was doing for us.

It is all about education. Not about working status.


Quote:
View Post
OT, ok, but I was married to such a woman for several decades. When she put on her WMD before leaving the house, the dogs went hiding in the basement. One of our kids had permanent asthma issues, but she wouldn't ease the chemical warfare even a tiny bit. He immediately and completely recovered after moving out.

Talk about second hand smoking...
You tell me. Everytime I am getting in a bus, tram, elevator, etc with someone who abused the perfume, I am having a asthma crise.... Not cool.

Some girls believe they have to leave a scent of their perfume that will last five minutes after the left... Too much perfume smells like cheap perfume.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #134  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:13
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 21,376
Groaned at 461 Times in 352 Posts
Thanked 23,091 Times in 11,824 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Some girls believe they have to leave a scent of their perfume that will last five minutes after the left... Too much perfume smells like cheap perfume.
I think your talking about the ones that did not take a shower, add more perfume & nobody will notice!
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:41
Captain Greybeard's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sarganserland / NW Lower Penin
Posts: 3,518
Groaned at 43 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 7,410 Times in 2,314 Posts
Captain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond reputeCaptain Greybeard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I think your talking about the ones that did not take a shower, add more perfume & nobody will notice!
That's just one aspect, but my ex mentioned above did shower but still applied (expensive) perfume like other people use a skin lotion. I told her a perfume is meant to be a close-combat weapon, not a WMD, but it didn't help any.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Captain Greybeard for this useful post:
  #136  
Old 09.07.2011, 18:45
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Luzern
Posts: 33
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 28 Times in 15 Posts
KÓrmi has earned some respectKÓrmi has earned some respect
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Try to go to Italy then! In some district in Milano is like fashion walk! You can also feel all the eyes on you if you don't dress with fashion (and this does not mean that they are elegant). There for a lot of people the appearance is extremely important, and you will have people laughing at your shoulder if you are a little eccentric in how you dress.(Italy)
That is so true, I thought I was the only one noticing this. Some people just stare at you from head to toe (it mainly happens in the city center though, around Duomo, Montenapoleone or Spiga streets, don't you think so?). But then again, I think this is not something out of the ordinary in large cities like Milan, Zurich or Paris.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 09.07.2011, 23:53
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I think your talking about the ones that did not take a shower, add more perfume & nobody will notice!
Yeah, so they stink (from BO) and reek (of perfume) at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:03
tearley's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Lausanne (Vaud)
Posts: 428
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 409 Times in 190 Posts
tearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputationtearley has an excellent reputation
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
That is so true, I thought I was the only one noticing this. Some people just stare at you from head to toe (it mainly happens in the city center though, around Duomo, Montenapoleone or Spiga streets, don't you think so?). But then again, I think this is not something out of the ordinary in large cities like Milan, Zurich or Paris.
My Swiss friends tell me that that they always check out someones' watch as an indicator of taste, status etc. My husband was born in Milan, but spent the last 15 in the US, and he will still sit at a side walk cafe and check out everyone's shoes. He claims it's in his DNA
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:15
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I guess sort of on a related note, (gender roles in Switzerland, that is) my husband asked if it was possible to get a different washing machine time (ours is Wednesdays from 1 pm to 5 pm!) from the "concierge"--a housewife who lives in our building. He explained that he works and can't take off every Wed. afternoon to do the laundry. Her response (in French): "Where, exactly, is your wife??" (Like I don't have a job either, or even if I didn't, what year is this???)
Next time this happens just tell her never mind and that you will be writing the Agency that leases the apartments since she can't be bothered to deal with you in a professional manner and that she shouldn't worry about it as you are sure that her boss will be more than happy to deal with it for her.

I have learned that the fastest way to get people to move is to assure them that you understand their job isn't really their responsibility and you will ask their boss who is responsible for doing what ever it is that needs to be done.


Usually they suddenly get a new lease on life, so to speak.
__________________
Many men, of course, became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural, and nothing to be ashamed of, because no one was really poor -- at least no one worth speaking of. - Douglas Adams
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank the_clangers for this useful post:
  #140  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:18
phdoofus's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: City by the Bay
Posts: 2,357
Groaned at 96 Times in 56 Posts
Thanked 3,205 Times in 1,227 Posts
phdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond reputephdoofus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
My Swiss friends tell me that that they always check out someones' watch as an indicator of taste, status etc. My husband was born in Milan, but spent the last 15 in the US, and he will still sit at a side walk cafe and check out everyone's shoes. He claims it's in his DNA
It's fortunate that some of us have learned to ignore such things.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gender, women




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why should a table have a gender? canyaver Language corner 78 02.07.2011 14:02
s raising a child free of gender roles a good idea? rfk General off-topic 6 28.05.2011 23:31
Anyone know how to determine a rabbit's gender? st2lemans Pet corner 14 27.04.2011 12:10
Gender Gap Nev Other/general 101 07.08.2009 11:45


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:43.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0