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  #141  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:28
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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It's fortunate that some of us have learned to ignore such things.
I think their interest isn't malicious, as much as it's culturally conditioned. Some people are just exhibit more social interest than us anglo-saxon types
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  #142  
Old 10.07.2011, 00:38
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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My Swiss friends tell me that that they always check out someones' watch as an indicator of taste, status etc. My husband was born in Milan, but spent the last 15 in the US, and he will still sit at a side walk cafe and check out everyone's shoes. He claims it's in his DNA
But it is awesome to do this in Milan and Saint Moritz and other like locals.
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  #143  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:08
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

The best is to marry a watchmaker and then not have any watches, since the pressure of knowing what is good and what is not just rules out anything one can buy in the shops. Not that it would make me stare at people's wrists, it's completely irrelevant. I think I look for the right smirk

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Yes, this is the same, famous little pearl that vexes me Today, she asked us when we are getting kick stands for the bicycles and if we are integrating. Then, she finished it up by asking me how learning French is coming along in a super slow and loud voice. Geez.
Anytime she gets onto anything inappropriate, bring your French homework. Seriously, keep her busy. Ask millions of question, force feed them. Loud and slowly. Soon she will have you as the finest example of integration. You need to laugh at this, or it will eat you...
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  #144  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:18
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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The best is to marry a watchmaker and then not have any watches, since the pressure of knowing what is good and what is not just rules out anything one can buy in the shops. Not that it would make me stare at people's wrists, it's completely irrelevant. I think I look for the right smirk

Anytime she gets onto anything inappropriate, bring your French homework. Seriously, keep her busy. Ask millions of question, force feed them. Loud and slowly. Soon she will have you as the finest example of integration. You need to laugh at this, or it will eat you...
Yeah, I'm actually over it. Just posting a funny update for those following along at home. Once I figured out that her behavior is grossly inappropriate and not "normal," that helped me a lot. As we say in the south, she needs to get right with Jesus (not me!).
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  #145  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:23
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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My Swiss friends tell me that that they always check out someones' watch as an indicator of taste, status etc. My husband was born in Milan, but spent the last 15 in the US, and he will still sit at a side walk cafe and check out everyone's shoes. He claims it's in his DNA
And yet my experience working with high end investors is that the richer they are the less they are bothered about status symbols. One of our wealthiest investors used to visit us in a rumpled suit and had a cheapo watch. Nice as pie and down to earth with absolutely nothing to prove.

It's the arsey little middle managers who spend up to the hilt on luxury sports cars with the latest Rolex strapped to their wrists.

I have to ask who has the taste then?
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  #146  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:29
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Some new money will want to rub in their recent success, it's a little sad, or show their refine taste, or so they think. Whatever.

When I picked up the best contemporary poet I know at the airport, he came with holes in his sport coat, broken shoelaces, didn't have travel bags, his books to sell were tied with a piece of string he found somewhere last minute and had coffee stains all over them. Yet people were fighting to have a minute with him and be able to buy a signed and coffee stained book...

Image is just skin deep.
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  #147  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:30
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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And yet my experience working with high end investors is that the richer they are the less they are bothered about status symbols. One of our wealthiest investors used to visit us in a rumpled suit and had a cheapo watch. Nice as pie and down to earth with absolutely nothing to prove.

It's the arsey little middle managers who spend up to the hilt on luxury sports cars with the latest Rolex strapped to their wrists.

I have to ask who has the taste then?
Hey! Sandgrounder, don't knock Rolex.
I inherited mine and have been wearing it myself for over 40 years.
My spine has let me down bigtime, but my Rolex, never
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  #148  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:35
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Hey! Sandgrounder, don't knock Rolex.
I inherited mine and have been wearing it myself for over 40 years.
My spine has let me down bigtime, but my Rolex, never
So it's not the latest model, then...

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Some new money will want to rub in their recent success, it's a little sad, or show their refine taste, or so they think. Whatever.

When I picked up the best contemporary poet I know at the airport, he came with holes in his sport coat, broken shoelaces, didn't have travel bags, his books to sell were tied with a piece of string he found somewhere last minute and had coffee stains all over them. Yet people were fighting to have a minute with him and be able to buy a signed and coffee stained book...

Image is just skin deep.
Are you sure you didn't pick up Peter Falk by mistake and the poet is still wandering around Arrivals?

Last edited by MusicChick; 11.07.2011 at 11:52. Reason: Merging consecutive posts.
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  #149  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:45
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Are you sure you didn't pick up Peter Falk by mistake and the poet is still wandering around Arrivals?
If so, he was a really good actor then.

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  #150  
Old 11.07.2011, 11:50
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Are you sure you didn't pick up Peter Falk by mistake and the poet is still wandering around Arrivals?
He's dead, poor sod!
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  #151  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:15
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

I made the same observation that many swiss women are housewives and they actually like to be housewives. This is what is surprising for me, considering the Switzerland is a developed country where women also have high education.
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  #152  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:17
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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I made the same observation that many swiss women are housewives and they actually like to be housewives. This is what is surprising for me, considering the Switzerland is a developed country where women also have high education.
Yes, it's lovely being in a country where both sexes are able to choose what they would like to do, isn't it?
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  #153  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:31
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

Here comes the thought, though. If there is zero conditioning, zero cultural preference, both girls and boys have same chances and expectations, education not mentioning, I doubt it will be only chicks going for giving up their career to stay at home with babes. So, there must be more to it, not just a place that allowes a lot more girls to be stay at home parents than boys. There are a more girls in Gymnase than boys.

Last edited by MusicChick; 11.07.2011 at 14:25.
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  #154  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:32
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Here comes the thought, though. If there is zero conditioning, zero cultural preference, both girls and boys have same chances and expectations,
Chances: yes. Expectations: nope. Girls and boys are different.
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  #155  
Old 11.07.2011, 12:47
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Chances: yes. Expectations: nope. Girls and boys are different.
I would say it is the opposite, though, that's the thing. Both genders do not have the same chances, no, but might have the same dreams and expectations from themselves. What gets expected from them might not correspond at all. Things are changing.
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Old 11.07.2011, 12:53
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Chances: yes. Expectations: nope. Girls and boys are different.
Sometimes not even the same chances.

I really don't see much chance of a woman getting into the construction industry as a heavy laborer, for example (there may of course be exceptions, but very few).

Tom
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Old 11.07.2011, 12:56
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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Sometimes not even the same chances.

I really don't see much chance of a woman getting into the construction industry as a heavy laborer, for example (there may of course be exceptions, but very few).

Tom
But doesn't that fall into the (personal) expectation category? Not many women see themselves as working in construction. There are plenty of female architects and project leaders but not many driving cranes and pouring concrete.

Not much demand from women = not much uptake on the courses.
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  #158  
Old 11.07.2011, 13:35
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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But doesn't that fall into the (personal) expectation category? Not many women see themselves as working in construction. There are plenty of female architects and project leaders but not many driving cranes and pouring concrete.

Not much demand from women = not much uptake on the courses.
I think that's exactly the point with gender equality; some people (feminists) expect the genders not just to be of equal value but to really be the same. But they're not, never been, never will be unless you force them to. I don't know what the women of tomorrow want to be, maybe construction really comes into fashion who knows? But what I do know is that unless it's politically enforced men and women will never be the same. Maybe in the future banking and management are women-dominated fields, and men have to prove that they're not just ego- and testosterone driven risk takers that can't make sensible decision? I am not at all saying that todays understanding of gender and sex and their associated qualities are given or unchangeable, but to expect boys and girls to want, dream, expect exactly the same would be a statistic anomaly and a political and social nightmare. Perhaps we should stop expecting and forcing people into a future and professions they never wanted in the first place and start accepting people taking their (politically incorrect) choices even if it offends traditionalists from both sides.
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Old 11.07.2011, 13:35
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

The reason why women run less on Olympic competitions is not because of some hidden chauvinistic agenda... Women, in general terms, can't do heavy work as much as men. Has nothing to do with chances, has to do with genetics.

There is, though, a very large increase on the number of women working as painters (like house painting, not artist like... is there a english word for it?). But you won't see the same thing on concrete dealing because it demands too much of a body strain.

But these women that are getting into working sites *not wearing white hard-hats* have a real tough time because they are not "expected" to be working there. Actually, the idea that a woman shouldn't even be an architect is still very much alive: after all, women are *decorators* not architects. (ah ah ah not funny)

But if I may be honest, I believe in construction work, women suffer less in Switzerland than in other countries in Europe. A female painter wouldn't find a job in my home country, though here I see enough.



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some people (feminists) expect the genders not just to be of equal value but to really be the same.
Waaaaait a second there! Let's not use too many generalizations there. Feminists are not all equal. Some actually have a brain and are aware of genetics. Some Feminists know that we should all be equal in our differences... *is also a feminist*
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Old 11.07.2011, 13:53
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Re: Gender roles in Switzerland

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I think that's exactly the point with gender equality; some people (feminists) expect the genders not just to be of equal value but to really be the same. But they're not, never been, never will be unless you force them to. I don't know what the women of tomorrow want to be, maybe construction really comes into fashion who knows? But what I do know is that unless it's politically enforced men and women will never be the same. Maybe in the future banking and management are women-dominated fields, and men have to prove that they're not just ego- and testosterone driven risk takers that can't make sensible decision? I am not at all saying that todays understanding of gender and sex and their associated qualities are given or unchangeable, but to expect boys and girls to want, dream, expect exactly the same would be a statistic anomaly and a political and social nightmare. Perhaps we should stop expecting and forcing people into a future and professions they never wanted in the first place and start accepting people taking their (politically incorrect) choices even if it offends traditionalists from both sides.
I totally agree. There is a lot of social engineering going on, though. I can't really comment on this here. Early streaming, gender push for certain fields, seats in programs open, etc etc.

I am no feminist but that little I know about it, the definition of feminism saying girls and boys are the same is wrong. That's not feminism. That's a wrong stereotype. My drummer was a feminist. It was not his pink crocs that made him a feminist.

There are many nuances, and to negate giving girls and boys same chances for careers (and not in physical extremes as dirt diggers, coal mining, etc.) because physically they wouldn't cope, is in my opion a cop out, that only really matters in a small percentage.

I actually think this is changing quite fast, considering the general allergy of the system towards the change...it's more people's mindsets, that need to catch up with this. But the doors are opening.
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