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Old 30.06.2011, 20:37
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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Taxed or not, we're a dying breed in the sites of the general public. Fatties, well, they're next though it's so epidemic at this point it may not get the popular vote like smoking has.
Quite literally a dying breed! What gets my rant, and it also works on ferries, public transport, planes/trains and anywhere else where we smokers have to endure the fatties taking up two seats or more, or can't manage the stairs.

They did not get that big over night! Get a life!

Sorry
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Old 30.06.2011, 20:48
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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Quite literally a dying breed! What gets my rant, and it also works on ferries, public transport, planes/trains and anywhere else where we smokers have to endure the fatties taking up two seats or more, or can't manage the stairs.

They did not get that big over night! Get a life!

Sorry
Well, don't be bitter as they have their own cross to bear. I can't imagine having to drag that kind of body mass around. It's a different kind of prison. Just imagine how much money it costs someone around here to get obese. I just boggle at the expense. Smokes seem cheap by comparison.

I'm rather amazed at the obesity rates here, actually, since the US is rather often pilloried for it's obesity rates but, when at the local badi, I don't see much difference in terms of ratios. In terms of cost to public health, having a number of family in health care, that's where the battle will be fought. Interesting times we live in.
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Old 30.06.2011, 20:56
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

Actually I hadn't thought about it like that - how much does it cost to get obese in Switzerland.......

Hmm I sense a phd coming on....

The National Difference in Disposable Income Used to become Clinically Obese
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  #64  
Old 30.06.2011, 23:53
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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Hi,

Yes maybe a blanket ban is unrealistic but since moving here my kids have had a huge increase of chest infections etc.We are even contemplating looking for somewhere else to live because we are sandwiched between two apartments where both residents smoke like chimneys!

I just feel it would not be a massive issue for smokers to be banned from ferries. There is so much beauty here and so much lovely fresh air,why have it contaminated?
Darcy
While I 1000% agree with you on how big of a plague smoking is here, I don't think second-hand smoke is the cause of the chest infections.

I've had a cough for a few months now, but recently made a week trip to Florida, where the cough immediately vanished. As soon as I got back, the cough came back — I mean within 24 hours, during which I had no more exposure to smoke than I had in Florida.

My dad, who's a doctor, thinks it might be allergies. Maybe that's a place to start?

The cold of Switzerland can't help. At least, I know it doesn't help me.
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  #65  
Old 01.07.2011, 00:01
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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I agree with your general argument - but not with your use of hyperbole. Passive smoking isn't a MASSIVE risk - nor are all smoker selfish people.

The simple solution is to have a smoking deck and a non-smoking deck on the boat.
For what it's worth, I commute daily with the Stäfa-Wädenswil-Männedorf boat, and all the smokers seem naturally considerate enough to always smoke outside on the aft (rear) deck, never the forward deck where it could waft inside. (Smoking is not allowed inside, though one time, this c•nt did her hair on the boat, including choking everyone with tons of hairspray fumes!)

I've joked with a friend that we should take a raclette cooker and extension cord with us on a train and see what happens…
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Old 01.07.2011, 00:05
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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I've joked with a friend that we should take a raclette cooker and extension cord with us on a train and see what happens…
It is the country of Racette.... They will take their spare spatulas out of their pockets and join.

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  #67  
Old 01.07.2011, 00:07
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

P.S. Every morning in Stäfa, while walking from the train to the boat, I have to make sure I walk ahead of this one other guy who also walks from train to boat, because as soon as he gets off the train, he lights up a cigarette, and it's some brand that creates an unusually penetrating and noxious smoke. (And this involves walking through a pedestrian tunnel, where the fumes don't dissipate quickly.)

I've given thought to bringing a spray bottle of water with me to put out his ciggies.

And I have to make sure to do the same in Wädenswil, because he lights up in the pedestrian tunnel there, too! (Other smokers' cigarettes, while equally rude in a tunnel, aren't as caustic.)
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Old 01.07.2011, 00:15
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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I'm rather amazed at the obesity rates here, actually, since the US is rather often pilloried for it's obesity rates but, when at the local badi, I don't see much difference in terms of ratios. In terms of cost to public health, having a number of family in health care, that's where the battle will be fought. Interesting times we live in.
Go to the deep south of the US, like NC or FL. The frequency (and degree) of obesity there, compared to other parts of the US, is shocking.

That said, I am not at all surprised that there is obesity here. It's hard to eat healthy here — everything at restaurants is unhealthy ("Fitnessteller" of a pan-fried pork chop with french fries?!?!), groceries have only primitive nutritional information on them, etc. Look at all the gipfeli people here eat!

If I ate breakfast like my coworkers (we do breakfast together), you'd have to move me with a forklift — they take a buttergipfeli, slather butter on it, and then place cheese or salami on it!
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Old 01.07.2011, 00:39
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

Did anybody google "second hand smoke risk"?
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Old 01.07.2011, 00:42
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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Did anybody google "second hand smoke risk"?
why - is everything on the Internet suddenly true and accurate?

There's been plenty of times that I've walked behind someone imitating Thomas the Tank Engine but I've been able to exhale at the right time to avoid most of it rather than planning my Internet tirade on the topic and sucking it all in......
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  #71  
Old 01.07.2011, 02:14
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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why - is everything on the Internet suddenly true and accurate?
You mean it's not!?!
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Old 01.07.2011, 19:05
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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I have not singled one person out for a personal attack.

True...

...you personally attacked an entire group of people.
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  #73  
Old 01.07.2011, 19:11
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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@Clangers

How much will you bet ? I still fail to see how cigarette smoke causes infection as the OP stated. Where did you get your facts from ? Diseases aren't always infections. Which is the greater risk, boarding a boat that might sink or getting an infection or disease from the negligible cigarette smoke mixed in the fresh air on the top deck ?
If you are sensitive to the chemical compounds that are in cigarette smoke, which most asthmatics and quite a few others are, you will have an increased risk of opportunistic infections because the reactions that you have, with regard to inflammation and increased damage to tissue as well as significantly increased secretions that can harbor infections. Most of the people that die with asthma don't actually die from it directly but rather opportunistic complications that arise from other issues attending the initial symptoms.

Been asthmatic all of my life and I have read quite a few studies and white papers on the subjects involved. Can't say that I compiled a large (or even small) collection of footnotes and references to use to back up my claims and personal experiences.

True. I never said that they were. But, neither are infections always diseases, if I am not mistaken.

I think that you will find in Modern Day Switzerland that your higher risk of death is probably not going to be related to the sinking of their highly regulated and extremely well run ferry fleet on the various lakes therein.

I don't recall anyone casually mentioning any fatalities. Although a case can, and sometimes is, made for this due to long term exposure, as well as lethal complications which can arise from inadvertent exposure by sensitive persons. A person with respiratory difficulties will definitely be more likely to suffer from lethal complications caused by second hand smoke on same boats. Notice I said more likely, which is distinguishable from guaranteed or not likely at all. Which is similar to what the OP said. I remember a comment about infections, which in small children, are very stressful to the parents. I assume that this explains the original comments from the OP. I can tell you that every doctor I have taken my child to has explicitly told me to avoid exposing her to any cigarette smoke at all.

Here is a different question for those that care to think about it....

Is it appropriate for those of us who are sensitive to potentially suffer hospitalisation at the whim of those who can not quash their impulse to use a known highly addictive substance at random in public and semi public places?

Having known and worked around smokers who are allowed and forbidden to smoke on the job, I can promise you that the effects on the over all group are worse when the smokers have to exercise self control rather than when the group has to be exposed to second hand smoke.

For those who aren't sensitive to second hand smoke and/or don't care, I am happy for you and glad that it doesn't ruin your moment/day/life. But for those who are sensitive to second hand smoke, it is not a trivial matter and is a continuous trial. It can sometimes make our lives a living hell.

Notice, I don't tend to demonise anyone in my posts, but I would enjoy a bit of compassion or at least self awareness in situations where I don't have the option to escape from users of this particular legalised drug.

BTW, the next front is public spaces where one cannot escape from the effects of smoking. I.E., in supposedly open areas where one cannot actually leave, without relinquishing their public rights. (boats, train platforms, bus stops, queues, etc.) We can argue about it all that we want, but people don't like to feel like they are being abused and trust me that is what it feels like. If I had a choice between a slap in face or dealing with smokers all day, many times I would take the physical assault, as then it would be over and I could retaliate with little fear of legal action.

Oh, and one other point. Don't forget that the two largest cigarette companies on the planet have their international offices in Lausanne, VD. When one considers this, the law changes in CH are tantamount to a major revolution. When you look at it like this, it is small wonder that many smokers are still suprised and shocked when they still hear how much those of us complain after all that has happened.
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Old 01.07.2011, 19:47
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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To be fair, I'm a smoker, albeit a well trained closet smoker from the Eastern US, but holy hell smokers here are unbelieveable in terms of disregarding personal space and consideration. I've seen parents giving an infant a bottle with a burning cig in the same hand holding the bottle. I've been at amusement parks watching a puppet show where a parent just lights up in a crowd where nobody flinches at the smog. I've been on a train where someone lights up BEFORE the bloody doors open. Yes, these folks are unbelieveably unthinking and selfish. And, worse, they are COMMONPLACE. When I want to smoke, I go out to a local park, sans children and smoke away from people. I don't smoke in my car or my apartment, either. I never used to believe that Europe was so smoky until I moved here...I avoid the HB in Zurich just because it's like walking into an ashtray on fire. It's terrible, really. It's like waking up in a land fifty years ago. Seriously.
Yes, thank you.
If all smokers were like you, there would be very little need for non-smoking laws.

Oh, and 50 years ago, people didn't smoke as casually and chain-smoking was a dirty word. (erm, words.)

Oh, and you are right. The worst is when you try and politely ask someone to move away from the children's play area in a public park whilst they smoke. Their response is, "I'm not breaking the law." Followed by the hand gesture that is the more passive version of feck off and turning their back to you and keep on smoking. Unfortunately, I have had to leave more than one park due to this kind of insane, bizarre behaviour.
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Old 01.07.2011, 20:12
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

I just moved here from Seattle where smoking bans in public places including outside have become commonplace. Its amazing. Its like heaven over there for people who strongly dislike second hand smoke. In fact, you are not allowed to smoke within 15 ft of the entryway to any restaurant or business. I think you can smoke in front of bars, but I'm not sure. Anyway, it is glorious. Also, smoking is banned everywhere outdoor/indoor...everywhere on the entire University of Washington campus...which is huge.

Have they ever tried real smoking bans like this in outside places here in Switzerland?
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Old 01.07.2011, 20:16
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

No 'cos it took years for this ban to even pass, also the Swiss don't like being "nanny stated" they have their ways 'round the laws.

I smoke again and swear coming to CH makes me smoke more than I ever did in even Greece, more than UK and defo more than California ...
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Old 01.07.2011, 20:19
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

yeah, no one really smokes in California anymore...at least not when I'm there. Its almost like smoking isn't even cool anymore. There is definitely a group of people who do, but it is pretty trendy to not smoke too...which is a great trend.

Its funny that a country with as many rules as Switzerland doesn't like to live in a "nanny state". That's hilarious.
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Old 01.07.2011, 20:39
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

I know, tell me about it, they follow the rules they have to the letter if they are sensible but will not pass anything they consider to be common sense; e.g you don't like smoke... stay out of smoking bars and away from smokers, don't like getting hit by a train... don't play on the track we're not putting a fence there etc...
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Old 01.07.2011, 22:01
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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Yes, thank you.
If all smokers were like you, there would be very little need for non-smoking laws.

Oh, and 50 years ago, people didn't smoke as casually and chain-smoking was a dirty word. (erm, words.)

Oh, and you are right. The worst is when you try and politely ask someone to move away from the children's play area in a public park whilst they smoke. Their response is, "I'm not breaking the law." Followed by the hand gesture that is the more passive version of feck off and turning their back to you and keep on smoking. Unfortunately, I have had to leave more than one park due to this kind of insane, bizarre behaviour.
Well, I think you'd still see laws being passed but there'd be less resistance. My MiL is visiting and she is quite shocked by all the smoking as most of the bans on transport, etc. have been in place for over 30 years where she's from.

And the behaviour of smoking around children still gets my jaw dropping every time - holding a smoke in the same hand as a bottle while feeding an infant, smoking next to a pram where the smoke just hangs over the baby, smoking while 'wearing' a baby, etc., etc., as in any other country you would at least expect a severe bitching out by other moms and at worst you could expect to be charged with child abuse...but here, nothing happens. Small wonder that smoking among the young is so high here.
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Old 01.07.2011, 23:21
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Re: smoking on Zurichsee ferries

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I've given more than daggers to a few, especially one who lit up right in front of my daughter at a show recently. I was like, you don't have a child, why don't you find somewhere else to smoke. He obliged but I was seriously peeved. I've had countless people just sit down next to my daughter and light up without any thought. I understand that it's the culture since smoking with an infant in your arms doesn't seem to be unusual but, still, change comes when someone takes the baton and says, seriously, you smoke around babies?
Prior to the smoking ban, I happened to be working in a restaurant for New Year's eve. All the windows were closed. The place was packed and there were many children and even babies. Within a few hours the restaurant air was disgusting. I had breathing problems for a day after that night...but how can you do it with kids around you???
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