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  #21  
Old 08.07.2011, 17:23
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

Indeed- klar?

As many new members arrive here and join, I see no reason why previous discussions or debates cannot be 'repeated' or rather continued. Any member who feels that they have 'been there, done that' can surely just choose to ignore.
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Old 08.07.2011, 17:27
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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This image is truly shocking...the overtones of racism are not even a little subtle. Even if "black sheep" is an expression, no one can ignore the visual impact of such a display.
Sorry, but I just don't see it that way.

I see it this way:

"In the English language, black sheep is an idiom used to describe an odd or disreputable member of a group...The idiom is also found in other languages, e.g., French, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hebrew, Portuguese, Bosnian, Greek, Turkish, Dutch, Afrikaans, Swedish, Danish, Spanish, Czech, Slovak, Romanian and Polish."

Tom
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Old 08.07.2011, 17:31
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sorry, but I just don't see it that way.


Tom
I think they are using it because it kind of "sails close to the wind" and is as far as they can go with a seemingly innocent expression to stir up the debate and get them all the air-time they need. Quid pro quo.
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Old 08.07.2011, 17:31
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sorry, but I just don't see it that way.

I see it this way:

"In the English language, black sheep is an idiom used to describe an odd or disreputable member of a group...The idiom is also found in other languages, e.g., French, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hebrew, Portuguese, Bosnian, Greek, Turkish, Dutch, Afrikaans, Swedish, Danish, Spanish, Czech, Slovak, Romanian and Polish."

Tom
Yes, but, lexically and visually this has a double meaning which is being exploited for its racial overtones. I'm trying to imagine the sh** storm that would erupt if an American city used this for a three strikes and you're out campaign against crime.
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Old 08.07.2011, 17:35
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Yes, but, lexically and visually this has a double meaning which is being exploited for its racial overtones. I'm trying to imagine the sh** storm that would erupt if an American city used this for a three strikes and you're out campaign against crime.
But that's because America has a different cultural baggage. That's neither right nor wrong but just shows that different places have different cultures. America also has many things that are quite normal there that wouldn't be acceptable here. Draconian alcohol laws, death penalty, baseball etc etc.
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Old 08.07.2011, 17:47
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I think they are using it because it kind of "sails close to the wind" and is as far as they can go with a seemingly innocent expression to stir up the debate and get them all the air-time they need. Quid pro quo.
No, I don't think so. You can put a malicious twist to anything and say they did it on purpose, and maybe here on the EF there is some pavlov reflex to do that. So if somebody starts a thread here that pedestrian crossings in CH are dangerous, everybody wll chime in saying that it is indeed so and why don't they do something about it. But if the thread starts off saying that the SVP said pedestrian crossings are dangerous and they want to do something about it, then everybody will say it is not so and really they are using it as an indirect way to get at dark skinned people because of same strange complex argument that somebody will weave.
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:03
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sorry, but I just don't see it that way.

I see it this way:

"In the English language, black sheep is an idiom used to describe an odd or disreputable member of a group...The idiom is also found in other languages, e.g., French, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hebrew, Portuguese, Bosnian, Greek, Turkish, Dutch, Afrikaans, Swedish, Danish, Spanish, Czech, Slovak, Romanian and Polish."

Tom
Of course. And there's absolutely no connotation or inference involved when adding a toothbrush moustache to pictures of SVP candidates either.

I thnk we can all read between the lines. Even the SVP.
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:13
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Yes, but, lexically and visually this has a double meaning which is being exploited for its racial overtones. I'm trying to imagine the sh** storm that would erupt if an American city used this for a three strikes and you're out campaign against crime.
You mean stuff like that
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  #29  
Old 08.07.2011, 18:15
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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This image is truly shocking...the overtones of racism are not even a little subtle. Even if "black sheep" is an expression, no one can ignore the visual impact of such a display.
Sometimes the SVP advertising campaign reminds me of the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Strange that!
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:29
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I think its obvious that Brunner is indirectly pointing his finger at dark skinned people.
The expression "Schwarze Schafe" has nothing to do with dark skinned people. In fact, the main target group in question is NOT dark skinned
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:40
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

I have to agree the discussions about the black sheep do tend to get a bit boring. I agree the posters could be called racist. They have done worse though
but the quote from Brunner really is nothing to get worked up about. If british journalists had called the NOTW journalists black sheep who should be expelled from their profession, or an SP politician called paedophile teachers black sheep who should be banned from teaching no one would care less. But seeing it's Toni Brunner theres a need to start a new thread about it.

Personally I'm not very happy about the SVP trying to box through their illogical law and am looking forward to their reaction to the inevitable spike in citizenship applications (me included) in the next few years. I would be among those who doesn't really feel the need to have the pass but will get it as an insurance policy towards anti foreigner laws.

The you'll probably see more of the poster above again...........
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:41
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

The people who do the advertising campaign for SVP don't choose their words randomly.They know exactly that these expressions provocate and bring up associations of " dark skinned peoples" .
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Old 08.07.2011, 18:50
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

So I don't need to get the Swiss pass after all since the SVP don't mind me staying here even if I murder some one since I'm white right?


Look I didn't like the sheep posters either but if you get worked up about this one remark from Brunner then it's probably best for your blood pressure if you avoid the media here
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  #34  
Old 08.07.2011, 19:04
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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You mean stuff like that
Ha ha, at least the SVP have got the sense to make a more oblique reference to it... D'oh!
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Old 08.07.2011, 19:12
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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there's absolutely no connotation or inference involved when adding a toothbrush moustache to pictures of SVP candidates either.
Of course not.

After all, Charlie Chaplin did spend his life in exile here!

Tom
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Old 08.07.2011, 19:35
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sometimes the SVP advertising campaign reminds me of the Nazi campaign against the Jews. Strange that!
I know what you mean
http://www.frontlinefilms.com.au/videos/nazi_super.htm
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Old 08.07.2011, 21:29
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Switzerland paying some expats loads of money doesn't mean we close our eyes and shut up our mouths on obvious racism, some people need to be objective a bit and forget about their bank accounts.

Criminals foreigners expelled ....Yes.
Calling a someone black is totally different story.

For me, it's one word....screw the SVP and everyone supporting them big time and i don't really mind packing and leaving immediately now if this is what Switzerland is

"Das Schwarze Schaf" is the bad exception, for instance in an otherwise respectable family

The SVP is not Switzerland, and Mr Brunner is just a functionary of the SVP
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Old 08.07.2011, 21:35
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Are you blind- have you seen the posters? How much clearer can that be?
I am absolutely sure you are not that naive.

En Suisse, l'UDC affiche son racisme sans complexe




The point is that some of the main targets are "whiter" than most Swiss

Whether Mr Toni Brunner is racist is irrelevant as he just is HMV (his master's voice) of Ayatollah Christoph Blocher
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Old 08.07.2011, 21:38
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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"In the English language, black sheep is an idiom used to describe an odd or disreputable member of a group..., Czech..
This made me smile. The expression itself is innocent in Czech but if anybody used it in the same connotation as above, or hang the same poster, it would hang about 5sec. And the people wouldn't make it home but would be arrested for inducing racial hatred and intolerance.

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Yes, but, lexically and visually this has a double meaning which is being exploited for its racial overtones. I'm trying to imagine the sh** storm that would erupt if an American city used this for a three strikes and you're out campaign against crime.
The sh** storm wouldn't be just in the US.

It seems to me, though, that the primary interest is to put pressure on gov, it's a vehicle to innitiate changes..unfortunately populistically exploiting people, and I am not sure who is being exploited more, people who are fed this scheme, or foreigners who are being portrayed in certain light.
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Old 08.07.2011, 21:44
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but we had a vote here last year and Brunner's argument is aimed at Bundesrat Sommaruga's seeming inability to initiate the legal process in writing the articles into law.

Sorry, no need to debate this again here, nothing to see, let's all move on and keep a smile. It's Swiss democracy working.

If you'd care to read the SVP's gripe, it's here.
Mrs Sommaruga HAS initated the legal process, and those in parliament in charge have already heavily worked on the matter. But the SVP is saying that those there are diluting their law

The SVP now threatens to launch an initiative Mk-II which may be far more radical than the original one. But the majority in parliament then will launch a new and revised Gegenvorschlag, which will then become law.
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