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  #41  
Old 08.07.2011, 23:54
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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You mean stuff like that
Absolutely. Most Americans find such images offensive, as do I.

And, I'm sure that most Swiss do not support the proposals and tactics of SVP. But, it is a mistake to deny that they are not exploiting the double entendre (and ambiguity) to the fullest extent. There is a racial component to their xenophobic, anti-immigrant policies--and this feeling is confirmed when I speak to people here in Switzerland about the changes in the country.

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  #42  
Old 09.07.2011, 08:00
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Absolutely. Most Americans find such images offensive, as do I.

And, I'm sure that most Swiss do not support the proposals and tactics of SVP. But, it is a mistake to deny that they are not exploiting the double entendre (and ambiguity) to the fullest extent. There is a racial component to their xenophobic, anti-immigrant policies--and this feeling is confirmed when I speak to people here in Switzerland about the changes in the country.
Many images used by right wing parties in countries like Switzerland and the USA ARE offensive. I discussed this with the lady at the cashiers desk at the MLK Memorial ATL (in 1997) and when I apologized for harsh pieces of white anti-black racism, she told me NOT to see things so strictly. She told me that in the homes of her wider family were lots of references to the Confederacy but of course having abolitionist anti-racist General Robert Edward Lee in mind making things easier. And so on and on. The lady was not a professional cashier but an intellectual volunteer (her husband apparently earning lots ....) and so could contribute a lot, also calming down Mum who was outraged about the missing Whites around there (the Black women telling us to give the US Whites a bit of time).

Back to the SVP. Be aware of the fact that the SVP not only is inherently racist, also realize that this party has syphoned up the sons and daughters of what was the "Nationale Front" (NSDAP CH) of the 1930ies. And do not forget that Mr Blocher is a German "Tricondo" or "Secondo" out of a Württembergische family with strong "Reichsdeutsche" instincts !

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  #43  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:28
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Back to the SVP. Be aware of the fact that the SVP not only is inherently racist, also realize that this party has syphoned up the sons and daughters of what was the "Nationale Front" (SDAP CH) of the 1930ies. And do not forget that Mr Blocher is a German "Tricondo" or "Secondo" out of a Württembergische family with strong "Reichsdeutsche" instincts !
I think this is unfair - the SVP grumbles in equal measure about anyone in Switzerland who isn't Swiss, irrespective of race, colour or creed. The only time you would sink below the current level of unpopularity is if you embark on criminal activity, although your popularity might increase in this case if you are managing a dodgy hedge fund which is actually filling the coffers of the local cantonal tax office in the period before it collapses...
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  #44  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:45
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I think this is unfair - the SVP grumbles in equal measure about anyone in Switzerland who isn't Swiss, irrespective of race, colour or creed. The only time you would sink below the current level of unpopularity is if you embark on criminal activity, although your popularity might increase in this case if you are managing a dodgy hedge fund which is actually filling the coffers of the local cantonal tax office in the period before it collapses...
alright, to be fair it is necessary to confirm that "true" SVPlers also detest white foreigners and CH people to the political left of them (spacious there). People bringing money into Swiss deposits of course are tolerated
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  #45  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:50
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Indeed- klar?

As many new members arrive here and join, I see no reason why previous discussions or debates cannot be 'repeated' or rather continued. Any member who feels that they have 'been there, done that' can surely just choose to ignore.
That's right... but it is always the same five users for a long time defending the SVP. Even on points that are blatantly obvious. Yes, "black sheep" is an idiom. But seriously claiming that it is completely harmless in this context and not at all meant in a racist way is just ignorant. Not ignorant as in "you have no idea" but in ignorant as in "you know better but don't admit it". The SVP was back then mainly discussing "African drug dealers" - so the context is clear. Since then the posters have been copied by various neo nazi groups all over Europe (for example the FN in France or the NPD in Germany).

Is there a problem with African drug dealers? Well, from my personal experience in the city is an over average number of pushers on the streets of Zurich and Bern clearly dark skinned. So probably yes.

Is this campaign racist? Yes.

Is Brunner a shepherd? An old Swiss German idiom comes to my mind: "too stupid to herd stones"...
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  #46  
Old 09.07.2011, 11:56
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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This image is truly shocking...the overtones of racism are not even a little subtle. Even if "black sheep" is an expression, no one can ignore the visual impact of such a display.
You take it as you want= it's your interpretation of it.

There's also "black/white" (opposite colors), often linked with "purity" for white, and "dirt" for black.

Why angel are always displayed white? Is that discrimination? NO.
Why the "peace" is represented by a white dove? Is that discrimination? NO.

In addition, arabs are "brown skinned", chineses are "yellow skinned", etc... So they even discriminate among races? NO.

I mean come on, i'm not defending them but if you want to express yourself, do it in a fair way considering everything.

For example you have not even commented on the fact that the "rejected sheep" is a criminal. Or that "every one is a sheep" (is that nice to be representing Swiss people as sheep?). Or that the sheep is a sheep (and not a WOLF for example (ie they are the same race).


See the big picture here!
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  #47  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:06
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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But seriously claiming that it is completely harmless in this context and not at all meant in a racist way is just ignorant. Not ignorant as in "you have no idea" but in ignorant as in "you know better but don't admit it".

Is there a problem with African drug dealers? Well, from my personal experience in the city is an over average number of pushers on the streets of Zurich and Bern clearly dark skinned. So probably yes.

Is this campaign racist? Yes.
Why do you ignore other important elements, present and visible in that poster?
You take 1 element and decide it's definitely racist.
Reality is more complex and less 100% "pure racism" as you pretend.


Is this campaign (=poster) contains some possible racist references? Probably yes ().
Is that racist with every race? No. It would be only "black", what about arabs, asians, etc?? there's also problem in Switzerland with french thiefs from north africa origin ("browns" to play with colors as the stereotypes wants). OOps I used "brown" i'm racist! kill me now!

Moreover what else is in it?
Reference to criminals: references to color contrast white/black: reference to white (angels, purity, etc...) and black (negative, etc... here possibly associated with criminals): reference to expulsing criminals, reference to the Swiss territory and the will keep it safe, etc...


I'm not defending that political thing, I don't care. But let's be honest in the critics!!
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  #48  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:19
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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That's right... but it is always the same five users for a long time defending the SVP. Even on points that are blatantly obvious. Yes, "black sheep" is an idiom. But seriously claiming that it is completely harmless in this context and not at all meant in a racist way is just ignorant. Not ignorant as in "you have no idea" but in ignorant as in "you know better but don't admit it". The SVP was back then mainly discussing "African drug dealers" - so the context is clear. Since then the posters have been copied by various neo nazi groups all over Europe (for example the FN in France or the NPD in Germany).

Is there a problem with African drug dealers? Well, from my personal experience in the city is an over average number of pushers on the streets of Zurich and Bern clearly dark skinned. So probably yes.

Is this campaign racist? Yes.

Is Brunner a shepherd? An old Swiss German idiom comes to my mind: "too stupid to herd stones"...
> Is the campaign racist ? Is the SVP racist ? YES on both counts
> Is the expression "black sheep" racist ? NO
> Is ANY expression used by the SVP harmless ? NO
> Would the same expression used by NON-SVPlers be harmless ? YES
> Is the SVP in the same guild as the FN etc ? YES
> Is the SVP against street-drug-sellers ? YES
> Is the SVP against those financiers financing+organising this ? NO
-
> Do you have personal experience with drug dealers ???
> Do you regard Mr Brunner as a "political leader"
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  #49  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:26
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

Because the term "black sheep" is most often used in reference to situations that have nothing to do with race, I really don't think it was intended by the SVP to be a racial reference -- particularly since it is not African Americans that are the most targeted foreigners here (wouldn't that be the Yugoslavians and/or Germans? I don't know).

Besides, wouldn't the SVP be a bit hesitant to be so blatantly racist? I would at least hope so...

I do think, however, that they should have put more forethought into their campaign/poster slogan, because I can definitely see how some people might assume that it was a racial reference.
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Old 09.07.2011, 12:26
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I'm not defending that political thing, I don't care. But let's be honest in the critics!!
Ok, let's be honest: The SVP is the most professional party when it comes to their campaigns. NOTHING in there is by chance. There are posters against Arabs, Jugos, Asians... whatever you like. They had red rats for left winged people before, hands of various colors grabbing Swiss passports, the stereotypical "rapper guy" who should not be allowed to vote, the Burka woman and minarett-rockets... black birds... where do I stop?

Just don't think that something did not happen on purpose.

The guy who makes the posters is really intriguing: A German immigrant (!) who after being a communist in one of the most radical flavours (not like one who grew up in a communistic system, but a real radical.) joined a neo-nazi psycho sect... which is worse than any of the parties including the Skinhead one. And now wants to "Make sure that Switzerland stays the way it is": http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...dossier_id=795

He's an advertising pro - don't expect a picture made by him to "only use a idiom".
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  #51  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:38
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

I do find it rather creepy how paranoid the Swiss government is about foreigners and particularly how "in your face" these sentiments are.

Some of this goes on in the US as well (particularly against Mexican immigrants), but it is rarely so blatant as it is here.
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  #52  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:44
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Ok, let's be honest: The SVP is the most professional party when it comes to their campaigns. NOTHING in there is by chance. There are posters against Arabs, Jugos, Asians... whatever you like. They had red rats for left winged people before, hands of various colors grabbing Swiss passports, the stereotypical "rapper guy" who should not be allowed to vote, the Burka woman and minarett-rockets... black birds... where do I stop?

Just don't think that something did not happen on purpose.

The guy who makes the posters is really intriguing: A German immigrant (!) who after being a communist in one of the most radical flavours (not like one who grew up in a communistic system, but a real radical.) joined a neo-nazi psycho sect... which is worse than any of the parties including the Skinhead one. And now wants to "Make sure that Switzerland stays the way it is": http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...dossier_id=795

He's an advertising pro - don't expect a picture made by him to "only use a idiom".
Sure, and let's be clear about it, the man you mean IS a Neo-Nazi .... he really IS ! And the leaders of the "Israelitische Gemeinschaften" long ago have realized that even if THEY are not mentioned, the SVP and its allies are anti-Jewish as well.
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  #53  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:51
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I do find it rather creepy how paranoid the Swiss government is about foreigners and particularly how "in your face" these sentiments are.

Some of this goes on in the US as well (particularly against Mexican immigrants), but it is rarely so blatant as it is here.
The Bundesrat? Please explain.
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  #54  
Old 09.07.2011, 12:54
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I do find it rather creepy how paranoid the Swiss government is about foreigners and particularly how "in your face" these sentiments are.

Some of this goes on in the US as well (particularly against Mexican immigrants), but it is rarely so blatant as it is here.
Carrie it is NOT the Swiss government- it is the SVP/UDC which is just a party - sadly one which does have the support of many, especially in some parts of the country. There is NO hiding the fact that SOME Swiss, and far too many imho, are racists. But there are many more who are appalled by their views and tactics and are fighting to stop their progress, me included.
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Old 09.07.2011, 13:00
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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The Bundesrat? Please explain.
I also would like to know
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Old 09.07.2011, 14:07
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

The word Rat, on its own or attached to another word, means 'advice' or Council. The 'a' is pronounced as a long aaaah.
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Old 09.07.2011, 14:55
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I do find it rather creepy how paranoid the Swiss government is about foreigners and particularly how "in your face" these sentiments are.

Some of this goes on in the US as well (particularly against Mexican immigrants), but it is rarely so blatant as it is here.
This is a fine example where a little knowledge is a bad thing. It's how these mad rumours about "Switzerland" and "the Swiss" start. New, fresh-faced and wide-eyed foreigners come to the country then are bombarded by fellow expats with half-baked information based on hearsay and misunderstanding which is then passed onto the next lot fresh off the boat with the individual's own twist on it and before long, bingo, we have Outraged-from-Expatland arranging protest marches and petitions to change policies which don't actually exist...
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Old 09.07.2011, 15:00
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Nonsense, it's just an expression, as it is in English.

Tom
No it's not. While you are correct in that it is an expression it is also a double entendre'. If the SVP were blaming light skinned people for the woes of Switzerland they wouldn't be using this imagery.

The fact that the imagery they use can mean both is what makes this sort of campaign so insidious. Because, I don't believe anyone is confused as to what the SVP mean when they use this sort of imagery over and over again.
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Old 09.07.2011, 15:09
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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The word Rat, on its own or attached to another word, means 'advice' or Council. The 'a' is pronounced as a long aaaah.
I always thought it was a Rodent
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Old 09.07.2011, 15:16
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Why don't EF forum members who are fed up of racism got together and tried to change things politically. Switzerland is a free country-you have the right to free speech and public demonstration. there is an organization that you can join- I already provided links. Otherwise you can form your own.
DB started working in this direction ,well done DB. But sadly there was no support given to him by fellow EFer
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