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  #121  
Old 13.07.2011, 08:37
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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you keep saying that...but they ARE the biggest party in Switzerland, and probably (?) the biggest right extreme party in the world...and they seem to win A LOT of initiatives lately, even though most people on EF thought that Swiss would turn them down...
They are far less extreme than the US Republican party.

Tom
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  #122  
Old 13.07.2011, 09:00
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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They are far less extreme than the US Republican party.

Tom
Sorry bad wording, I should have said "in the democratic part of world"...my mistake...
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  #123  
Old 13.07.2011, 09:01
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sounds like they are related to "our" blondie Geert Wilders

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/pr...speech-charges
Isn't that SVP-Oscar's buddy?
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  #124  
Old 13.07.2011, 10:09
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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You must quite naive to think that SVP does not know what they are doing, there NO mistakes in SVPs posters! They know exactly how to create a "fuss", and that is what they want in their "black & white"-world...
No, I think you misunderand.

They know exactly which buttons to press to wind up lefties. It's what they love to do. And obviously you are letting them press your wind-up buttons too.

I've explained this before on a different thread. The whole point of the SVP is to wind people up, to get them excited and then to make them say utterly stupid things against the SVP that utimately benefit the SVP.

Also, they don't necessarily want to win referenda. They are quite happy if they can unleash a storm over their ideas and the other parties come away with egg on their face. The SVP even win when they lose, because for them to win morally they only need to get more percentage points than they do at elections, so proving that at least some people who support other parties agree with them. In that respect, every initiative they have ver launched has been a resounding victory for them.

I once listened to an interview with Blocher and the most interesting thing he said (maybe the only interesting thing) was that he didn't want to be a solutions man. He didn't want to suggest solutions. He wanted to raise awareness of problems that the other parties were sweeping under the carpet. He said, once you agree there is a problem, finding a solution is fairly downhill from there, and he's quite happy living with other people's solutions even if they are not the solutions he would have preferred. The real challenge is ackonwedging there is a problem that needs a solution and that's what the SVP thinks its trying to do.
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  #125  
Old 13.07.2011, 15:34
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Parteipräsient Toni Brunner. "Wir wollen, dass die schwarzen Schafe endlich ausgeschafft werden." Die SVP greift denn auch erneut auf das Schafe-Plakat zurück, das vor den letzten Wahlen Diskussionen ausgelöst hatte. Damals sammelte die SVP Unterschriften für die erste Ausschaffungsinitiative.
Translation: The president of the SVP wants to expel any foreigners who commit a crime in Switzerland. These foreigners he calls black sheep ( Schwarze Schafe). What sort of a stupid racist attack is that?

I suppose the term ''Schwarzfahrer'' is also secretly racist then ?
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  #126  
Old 13.07.2011, 20:26
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I suppose the term ''Schwarzfahrer'' is also secretly racist then ?
it really depends in what context, e.g. if SVP would launch an initiative against deporting foreigners for going in e.g trains without a ticket, they would probably write "Schwarzfahrer müssen weg"...and have some witty picture...

once again, of course SVP is using symbolism to create a fuss, if you can't or won't see that it's up to you. BUT there are many people from other cultures who does not understand the meaning of "black sheep"...

What SVP want, and what they have succeeded with, is to make foreigners feel unwelcome and uncomfortable here...
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  #127  
Old 13.07.2011, 20:58
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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yes they have not gone through enough back in Sbrenica...so lets drag em down a little bit more....
on which side stood the SVP then ?
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  #128  
Old 13.07.2011, 21:13
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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you keep saying that...but they ARE the biggest party in Switzerland, and probably (?) the biggest right extreme party in the world...and they seem to win A LOT of initiatives lately, even though most people on EF thought that Swiss would turn them down...
Sure they are the biggest party in Switzerland. They being rightwing-extremist is a matter for discussion. I in this agree with you but most experts inside CH and abroad do not. They lost more public votes in the past 20 years than they won, and the SP won more votes than they lost, and this with a far smaller base of power. The Minaret-initiative got won by the SVP as they out of a sudden had the support of leftist-feminists. Conspiracy-enthusiasts may speculate about those crazies having been paid by the SVP, but to all appearance they were not.

It may a bit early for forecasts for the next parliamentary elections, but all polls show them either declining or at least stagnating. Their central problem is that they for more than a decade profited from protest votings but you cannot play the "eternal-opposition" for eternities.

They may regain a 2nd seat in the federal government, as a share of between 25 and 30% in parliament DOES entitle them for 2 seats, but it may well be that Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf succeeds in staying in government. If so, that shrewd women will have no alternative to moving left, towards the political centre. Whomever of the FDP (Didier Burkhalter or/and Johann Schneider-Ammann) survives also will be forced towards the centre.
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  #129  
Old 13.07.2011, 21:27
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

SH** stirring without ever proposing any kind of solution can't last forever, hopefully. Like the Emperor's clothes, they will eventually be seen for what they are.
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  #130  
Old 13.07.2011, 22:09
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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SH** stirring without ever proposing any kind of solution can't last forever, hopefully. Like the Emperor's clothes, they will eventually be seen for what they are.
As was Mr. Blocher. He shut up eventually (or at least piped down a bit).
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  #131  
Old 13.07.2011, 22:20
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Nonsense, it's just an expression, as it is in English.

Tom
It could be "just" an expression. But I am pretty sure that the ambiguity in this expression is very convenient for Toni Brunner and his fellows.
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  #132  
Old 13.07.2011, 23:25
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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It could be "just" an expression. But I am pretty sure that the ambiguity in this expression is very convenient for Toni Brunner and his fellows.
Maybe so or not. BUT Mr Brunner does NOT have fellows, even if he is a fellow
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  #133  
Old 14.07.2011, 00:40
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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SH** stirring without ever proposing any kind of solution can't last forever, hopefully. Like the Emperor's clothes, they will eventually be seen for what they are.
Unfortunately not - thanks to the unique Swiss system of government: In any other country do you have a coalition of parties that form the government and the rest is opposition. The "whe know better" noise the SVP makes is typical opposition behaviour. When successful, an opposition gets elected and suddenly has to live up to the promises they made before... and in most cases show that they in fact don't know it THAT much better...

Here in Switzerland, ALL parties form the government - all the time. So the SVP is in fact loudly complaining about policies they help to establish with their politicians in all organs of the system... you can continue to do this forever without being seen for what you are. You never have to step up and take responsibility for something as all parties share the Bundesrat, they share the responisibility for its actions...
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  #134  
Old 14.07.2011, 06:50
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

And if ever Swiss trains fail to run on time, Blocher will be your man.

Cheers,
Nick

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No, I think you misunderand.

They know exactly which buttons to press to wind up lefties. It's what they love to do. And obviously you are letting them press your wind-up buttons too.

I've explained this before on a different thread. The whole point of the SVP is to wind people up, to get them excited and then to make them say utterly stupid things against the SVP that utimately benefit the SVP.

Also, they don't necessarily want to win referenda. They are quite happy if they can unleash a storm over their ideas and the other parties come away with egg on their face. The SVP even win when they lose, because for them to win morally they only need to get more percentage points than they do at elections, so proving that at least some people who support other parties agree with them. In that respect, every initiative they have ver launched has been a resounding victory for them.

I once listened to an interview with Blocher and the most interesting thing he said (maybe the only interesting thing) was that he didn't want to be a solutions man. He didn't want to suggest solutions. He wanted to raise awareness of problems that the other parties were sweeping under the carpet. He said, once you agree there is a problem, finding a solution is fairly downhill from there, and he's quite happy living with other people's solutions even if they are not the solutions he would have preferred. The real challenge is ackonwedging there is a problem that needs a solution and that's what the SVP thinks its trying to do.
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  #135  
Old 14.07.2011, 07:39
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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And if ever Swiss trains fail to run on time, Blocher will be your man.

Cheers,
Nick
To blame; from Bloching the train of progression? Tick tock, tick tock, time may be running out for Switzerland.

Sometimes I wonder though. Other countries feel that it is important to invest in education, Switzerland not so; what is not home grown they can import. That imported people do not stay does not matter; they simply buy in more.

Most newcomers think that they can cope with the racism. By the time they realize that they can't, they either leave and are replaced, or compromise their morals and when they can't beat it, join the racism (as the Geneva thread shows). Some even raise little neo-Nazi thugs, after all there are neo-Nazi nuts all over Europe. It's hard to turn a blind eye yet not become indoctrinated.

How to attract and keep the cream of professionals though, sometimes that takes more than money (some Black sheep are very valuable). But Switzerland has so much more than money to offer and Switzerland has the advantage of swinging with the Shwengen as they choose. It's just such a shame about the racism.
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  #136  
Old 14.07.2011, 09:40
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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but you cannot play the "eternal-opposition" for eternities.
The German Greens seem to be doing just fine in that role. They are even managing to play opposition to things they actually approved of when they were in power and their support is still growing.
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  #137  
Old 14.07.2011, 09:42
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sometimes I wonder though. Other countries feel that it is important to invest in education, Switzerland not so
Well, the ETH is only one of the top universities in Europe, and Switzerland produces heaps of nobel laueates. But I suppose Switzerland doesn't invest in education, no.
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  #138  
Old 14.07.2011, 12:03
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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To blame; from Bloching the train of progression? Tick tock, tick tock, time may be running out for Switzerland.

Sometimes I wonder though. Other countries feel that it is important to invest in education, Switzerland not so; what is not home grown they can import. That imported people do not stay does not matter; they simply buy in more.

Most newcomers think that they can cope with the racism. By the time they realize that they can't, they either leave and are replaced, or compromise their morals and when they can't beat it, join the racism (as the Geneva thread shows). Some even raise little neo-Nazi thugs, after all there are neo-Nazi nuts all over Europe. It's hard to turn a blind eye yet not become indoctrinated.

How to attract and keep the cream of professionals though, sometimes that takes more than money (some Black sheep are very valuable). But Switzerland has so much more than money to offer and Switzerland has the advantage of swinging with the Shwengen as they choose. It's just such a shame about the racism.
Sorry but that post is crying out for something substantial and statistical to back it up otherwise it looks like (heaven forbid) another impotent and unsubstantiated rant.

In addition, you make it sound like Switzerland is the only country in the world that has racism. If anyone comes to Switzerland (or any other country for that matter) expecting there to be zero racism and/or xenophobia, they must have been living in a bubble up to that point.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 14.07.2011 at 15:02. Reason: After-thought on the "WTF??" comments
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  #139  
Old 14.07.2011, 12:05
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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Sorry but that post is crying out for something substantial and statistical to back it up otherwise it looks like (heaven forbid) another impotent and unsubstantiated rant.
From Hoppy? Shurely shome mishtake!
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  #140  
Old 14.07.2011, 17:10
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Re: Which Sheep does he mean?

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I suppose the term ''Schwarzfahrer'' is also secretly racist then ?

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it really depends in what context, e.g. if SVP ...
Exactly.

Whatever SVP says, it's racist.

Therefore tax cuts are also racist.
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