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Old 13.08.2011, 11:49
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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I might be the only one being a bit thick this morning but I can't see anything wrong with this?
You`re not think, just open-minded...unlike many Swiss.....
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Old 13.08.2011, 11:55
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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You`re not think, just open-minded...unlike many Swiss.....
Let's get this straight: the lady at the bus stop asked if you were getting on the bus, then walked into a shop. Is that right?

Perhaps she doesn't like crowded buses. Perhaps she had a headache, and preferred to wait for the next bus rather than sit near children - even the loveliest of whom can be very noisy. Perhaps she just remembered that she'd forgotten to pick up some butter.

I just don't understand how going into a shop can be considered an offensive act.
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:22
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

Well, I see her point..going to the store is not offensive at all. But if I was asked if specifically I am waiting on a bus (who's biz is that), and have that person walk away, probably with certain facial expression or that kind of "warm" behavior that gets reported here far too often to be random, I might see that mom's point. I think that was pretty rude, if that was the case. Moms with babes are entitled to decency as much as old folks. If I asked an old lady if she is going on a bus, and I'd purposely avoid that bus for whatever reason, I'd die of evil conscience since chances are she would get my behavior. People are clever.
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:25
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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People are clever.
People get offended too easily, quite frankly. Having someone walk into a shop to avoid me or my children (if, indeed, that was the reason) wouldn't really come top of my list of offensive actions.
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:30
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

"Are you catching this bus?"

"Yes"

* Old lady walks away thinking that it is a pity that the young family wouldn't have time to join her in the 80% off sale that was just about to start.



Seems pretty clear to me.
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:31
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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You`re not thick, just open-minded...unlike many Swiss.....

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People get offended too easily, quite frankly. Having someone walk into a shop to avoid me or my children (if, indeed, that was the reason) wouldn't really come top of my list of offensive actions.
I have to say, even as a parent myself, I still make an effort to sit away from loads of kids, especially after a hard day in the office or a crap night's sleep. The last thing I want is a cacophony of gobby kids bouncing around me. I don't do this to cause offence, just to preserve my sanity and to prevent my ears bleeding.
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:43
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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People get offended too easily, quite frankly. Having someone walk into a shop to avoid me or my children (if, indeed, that was the reason) wouldn't really come top of my list of offensive actions.
Sure. But people in complaint corner won't ever share your list of offensive actions, identically, so asking why people complain is like expecting people will like the same beers, hahaha.

After being a mom here, and certain offensive actions that have left me quickly readjusting my list and my reactions to them, I understand what Lena wrote about, though I wouldn't have that phase me at all.

I do not think elderly or moms with kids should have to avoid eachother, to be honest, in order to coexist. I got a report from my dear friend last night about a neighbor who sprays her and her two kids under 4 from a balcony purposely with insecticide and commenting on her unruly kids at the same time, amongst other offensive actions. And no, it is not an accident, happens far too often and the neighbor is very explicit about it in her commentary. Mind you, my friend has very lovely and well behaved kids (she is a teacher so little over done her parenting/pedagogical influence).
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Old 13.08.2011, 12:55
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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I have to say, even as a parent myself, I still make an effort to sit away from loads of kids, especially after a hard day in the office or a crap night's sleep. The last thing I want is a cacophony of gobby kids bouncing around me. I don't do this to cause offence, just to preserve my sanity and to prevent my ears bleeding.
Absolutely. Especially after a day in school, I see the point, too.

But do you actually ask people in order to efficiently avoid them? "which seat will you sit on so I can stay as far as possible?"
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Old 13.08.2011, 13:13
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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Absolutely. Especially after a day in school, I see the point, too.

But do you actually ask people in order to efficiently avoid them? "which seat will you sit on so I can stay as far as possible?"
A band of school kids have usually forced their way in front of everyone and found themselves a seat long before I've got my act together and realised the tram has arrived. Avoidance is therefore easy...
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Old 13.08.2011, 13:35
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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I can't believe that the driver shouted at your son like that! If he had quietly said to you something i could possibly understand that, but not at your 3 year old. That is shocking behaviour.

I have worked with children with additional needs in the past, and know how challenging it can be, and I really feel for you in those situations. It's bad enough with any child who decides at that second to throw a tantrum, but a child with any additional needs it makes life all the harder.

All I can say in those situations is that people are ignorantly unaware, and a screaming child is just another screaming child, and unless your child has a physically outward sign of having special needs, people won't know and think he is just another screaming child. But I agree that the driver's behaviour was awful.....esp to shout at him.
You can't believe .... ? Sorry, but I CAN ! Which does not mean that I agree with such a dull and ignorant and grumpy behaviour. BUT that we have to realize that drivers of any public vehicles are not clones but of course very very different, and some indeed ARE grumpy and angry ill-humoured persons.

A) you can on the spot tell him to relax and calm down
B) you can try to be diplomatic
C) you SHOULD write to the management of the company in question. A driver who out of a minimal "incident" gets into a fit of rage may be a danger to the security of the public, as he may make a mistake deadly for many

I a few months ago, when there was such an "incident", told the bus-driver "please relax and calm down" and then, ignoring the driver calmed down the other person. Matter solved, at least as well as possible.

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Old 13.08.2011, 13:39
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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A band of school kids have usually forced their way in front of everyone and found themselves a seat long before I've got my act together and realised the tram has arrived. Avoidance is therefore easy...
I know. Strategic.
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Old 13.08.2011, 14:54
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

We travelled by train back from Venice - lovely. And then in Milan a group of about 30 (some drunk) school teenagers from a school near Lausanne got in. Not pleasant. I felt so so relieved that I do not organise school trips anymore. Quite a long journey back- a great trip's finale ruined.
The poor teachers were totally exhausted and disappointed about some of the kids behaviour (who had signed a non alcohol and good behaviour pledge prior the trip) - and sadly are not likely to volunteer for another- but this is another story.

Now this has nothing to do with THIS case- but as true as there are grumpy old people, and grumpy drivers- there are also, some, sadly, parents who allow their kids to run riot and behave very badly in public spaces, without any attempt to rein them in- most of us will agree.
NO excuse whatsoever- but perhaps he'd had several that day + a couple of schools on trips, etc- and he was just at the end of his tether (shouldn't have been, I know, but). As parents we tried to keep our kids under control and I know my kids and younger friends also do this now with their own kids. If a child has ADHT, autism or other difficulty, then the reality is very different.
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Old 13.08.2011, 15:04
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

If a person has offended me, I like to go back and talk to them after everyone has calmed down. Quite often, it's a misunderstanding or the person really has had a bad day and just lost his nerve.

There are times when the person is just plain rude and there's nothing you can do about it.

This is not a Swiss problem. This is a personality problem that can happen anywhere.
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Old 13.08.2011, 15:50
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

I was in the train station once and there were a group of female students waiting for the non-stop train to Milan. They were in a right state. They'd been drinking so were tipsy. Their clothing was appalling. They'd all adopted the same "uniform" of mini-skirt and revealing low cut crop tops.

"Are you catching this train?", I asked. They were.

Just my luck, the only seat I could find was in the middle of the group.

It was terrible. The shouting was so loud and the beating... I suppose she had a point though. I'd only popped to the station for some milk. She wasn't at all pleased when I got back in two days later covered in lipstick and cheap perfume. And I'd forgotten the milk.
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Old 13.08.2011, 16:27
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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This is not a Swiss problem. This is a personality problem that can happen anywhere.
I mostly agree with you. For sure people with angry personality is found everywhere, somebody that had a bad day and can not control emotions, etc. (although you might concede that attitude towards kids differs widely across cultures). In this case, while not desiring to offend, I believe that an episode like the one here exposed would be deemed as unacceptable in a country more focused on customer service. It is not a question on how to raise children in Switzerland, it is about how you treat customers. A call on attention can be done on a much more respectful way than yelling.

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If a person has offended me, I like to go back and talk to them after everyone has calmed down. Quite often, it's a misunderstanding or the person really has had a bad day and just lost his nerve.

There are times when the person is just plain rude and there's nothing you can do about it.
Yes, there are things that one can do: if the person does not want to reason, formally file a complaint, of course on a very polite way. The hard bargain culture does no good to the swiss internal commerce and touristic structures. For sure there are shops and services which have excellent customer care in this country, but unfortunately most are found on the luxury niche of the market.
There is way much more that can be done in this country regarding customer service and channels to provide feedback from customers, from which commerce and tourism would benefit. No need to intensive courses on customer care for all the staff in a shop, but simple mechanisms like having complaints books everywhere would cool down offended customers and partially deter people working for the public from unacceptable attitudes. Even plain rude people do review their attitude when a number of complaints from customers show to management that they have too many "bad day, but just today".

Regarding the particular case of the driver yelling at the child: accepting an offense against a child just because the driver could have a bad day is wrong-wrong. Wrong for the train company, because the driver might repeat the abuse in the future and go on offering a poor service that is surely not desired, and wrong for the child, who will learn that abuse is sometimes acceptable without consequences.
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Old 14.08.2011, 00:38
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

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We travelled by train back from Venice - lovely. And then in Milan a group of about 30 (some drunk) school teenagers from a school near Lausanne got in. Not pleasant. I felt so so relieved that I do not organise school trips anymore. Quite a long journey back- a great trip's finale ruined.
The poor teachers were totally exhausted and disappointed about some of the kids behaviour (who had signed a non alcohol and good behaviour pledge prior the trip) - and sadly are not likely to volunteer for another- but this is another story.

Now this has nothing to do with THIS case- but as true as there are grumpy old people, and grumpy drivers- there are also, some, sadly, parents who allow their kids to run riot and behave very badly in public spaces, without any attempt to rein them in- most of us will agree.
NO excuse whatsoever- but perhaps he'd had several that day + a couple of schools on trips, etc- and he was just at the end of his tether (shouldn't have been, I know, but). As parents we tried to keep our kids under control and I know my kids and younger friends also do this now with their own kids. If a child has ADHT, autism or other difficulty, then the reality is very different.
Grumpy and misbehaving young people can be the pest, true, but misbehaving and grumpy <>above-30<> people are clearly worse. Worst is ill-behaving folks of your own age group. I still remember even as it was back in 1970, that I was in the train station of Venezia and wanted to buy a Tages-Anzeiger or NZZ, but there were some ... from Zurich around (dialect was clear) who caused me to think "did I ever understand this language ..." and so bought a Times and a LeMonde and proceeded to the next café
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Old 14.08.2011, 01:18
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

Just wanted to say another thank you for the continued messages with not just support but a good discussion about how to deal with the issue of "bad behaviour" in the future. I realise I need to stay calm, that people will tolerate more noise and upset than I realise, develop a thicker skin because people will turn round, stare, pass comments - and to realise that whilst the comments may come over as abrupt, they often actually are not - but that no one should have to tolerate unpleasant toddler behaviour for a protracted period, in which case evasive action (for which I think read removal from the scene) is required. I don't intend to broadcast his problems but if I feel it can help in a situation, there is no reason to feel ashamed to mention it. Phew! Pretty comprehensive action plan there, but I'm a person who always loves to a have a plan up their sleeve ....

As for the current situation, I too came to the conclusion that it was just one guy having a crappy day for whatever reason. We are enjoying the rest of our holiday and I have no intention to prolong the annoyance by sitting down to pen a complaint letter, but may reconsider once we are back home.

Thanks again to everyone - this virtual moaning session has been incredibly therapeutic ...
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Old 29.09.2011, 18:25
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

Well, I am back in Switzerland for a few days, enjoying the break and the sunshine. We are staying on the outskirts of Winterthur so this morning I walked into town, did some shopping, had lunch, mooched around and decided to get the bus back. So, I waited for the No. 1 (easy!) to Toss (!) which, of course, arrived bang on time.

I then got onto the bus via the front doors in order to pay the driver. BIG mistake. I had my purse in my hand to pay him and said the name of my stop, whereupon the driver proceeded to go absolutely berserk, shouting loudly, waving his arms around and pointing animatedly at something I could not see. A helpful woman sitting near the front then informed me that I needed to buy a ticket. So, I legged it over to the ticket machine and just as I was getting back to the bus the driver drove off at speed, as a couple were also about to get on via the middle doors.

I have to say that this incident spoilt, what had been up until then, a lovely day.
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Old 29.09.2011, 18:54
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

I'd guess the driver was a native of your destination.
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Old 29.09.2011, 18:55
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Re: People shouting at my child ...

What an idiot of a driver! Problem is they HAVE TO BE ON TIME - and schedules are tight, so you delayed him- but no excuse.

Buses in Malta (where you live I believe) are amazing hey! 1950's old Leyland, colourful with fabulous chrome grills/bonnet. Old leather seats and absolutely NO suspension left - fantastic. And so cheap, about 50Cts to cross the whole Island. Loved it. But don't expect them to be on time, they'll turn up when they are good an ready.

Don't let this twit (vowel change optional) spoil this wonderful autumn weather. Coming to Morges on Saturday to meet us all at the Veteran car rally and cheese party?
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