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  #81  
Old 17.08.2011, 15:36
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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  #82  
Old 17.08.2011, 15:40
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters



I dont like like Margaret Thatcher but 100% agree with what she once said..
"Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t."

Therefore what does having a sunny smiling happy face say as a symbol
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  #83  
Old 17.08.2011, 22:32
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

I received a reply from the SBB.

Basically they say "It's out of our hands if the poster is not extremely offensive".
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

Ref. KUDI5457707
SVP-Werbekampagne gegen die Masseneinwanderung; Ihre Rückmeldung


Sehr geehrter Herr Ittigen

Vielen Dank für Ihre Rückmeldung und Ihre offenen Worte zur SVP-Werbekampagne gegen die Masseneinwanderung.

Nun ist es so, dass die Geschäftsleitung der SBB bereits vor über 15 Jahren den Aushang von Plakaten für Wahlen / Parteien auf SBB-Grundeigentum freigegeben hat. Davon ausgeschlossen waren lediglich der Aushang von Plakaten für Sachabstimmungen. Im Frühjahr 2003 wurde dieses Verbot jedoch aufgehoben. Politische Werbungen sind seit diesem Zeitpunkt ohne Einschränkungen zugelassen, solange sie nicht gegen Sitte und Anstand verstossen, nicht ehrverletzend sind auch sonst nicht gegen geltende Gesetzesbestimmungen verstossen. Die Sujets der aktuellen SVP-Kampagne haben wir rechtlich überprüft und für zulässig befunden.

Übrigens: Sämtliche Werbung – auch politische – wird durch die Firma APG vermarktet und kann zu normalen kommerziellen Konditionen und ohne örtliche Einschränkungen bei ihr gebucht werden. Als Vermieterin von Werbeflächen an Dritte ist die SBB somit lediglich «Standortgeberin». Es ist uns bewusst, dass unsere Werbeflächen wegen ihrer zentralen Lage viel beachtet werden. Ebenso wissen wir, dass politische Botschaften auf unserem Areal fälschlicherweise als Botschaften der SBB verstanden werden – obschon die SBB keine politische Institution ist. Für uns steht aber hier im Vordergrund, unsere Werbeflächen allen Interessen gleichermassen zugänglich zu machen und alle Mieter dieser Werbeflächen fair und neutral zu behandeln.

Wir hoffen, dass wir Ihnen mit diesen Informationen einige Zusammenhänge skizzieren konnten und danken Ihnen für die Gelegenheit zu einer Stellungnahme.

Freundliche Grüsse


Yvonne Wohlfender
Zentraler Kundendienst SBB
-------------------------------------------------
Schweizerische Bundesbahnen SBB
Division Personenverkehr
Kundendienst
Postfach, CH-3000 Bern 65
Telefon 0800 401 401
kundendienst@sbb.ch
www.sbb.ch
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  #84  
Old 17.08.2011, 22:38
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Politische Werbungen sind seit diesem Zeitpunkt ohne Einschränkungen zugelassen, solange sie nicht gegen Sitte und Anstand verstossen, nicht ehrverletzend sind auch sonst nicht gegen geltende Gesetzesbestimmungen verstossen.
'nicht gegen Sitte und Anstand'? Ha ha ha.

Ask SBB what their definition of 'Anstand' is. I would be curious to hear their answer.
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Old 17.08.2011, 22:42
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I know a number of folks who cross the border everyday from the French side to work in La Chaux de Fonds and Le Locle, many would like to live in those towns but can't get the permit. Most of the watch companies there and in the Vallee de Joux are staffed by a majority of French (and to a lesser degree a few other nationalities), and all that money paid in salary goes over the border each month. Wouldn't it make sense to keep it here? At the price of some permits? I don't get it.
All the frontaliers I know who work here do not have any desire to live in CH. They are currently earning about 4x what they would earn in France- buy their petrol and fags here before going home over the border. Then they buy houses, or rent, at French prices, shop at French prices, have cheap health care and high child allowance, etc - they are having a ball at the moment, and I'm very happy for them.
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  #86  
Old 18.08.2011, 02:20
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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'nicht gegen Sitte und Anstand'? Ha ha ha.

Ask SBB what their definition of 'Anstand' is. I would be curious to hear their answer.
Sitte und Anstand means that it does not cross the line of what is considered to be morally acceptable. It's a fixed expression. To translate it literally could be misleading.
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  #87  
Old 18.08.2011, 06:49
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

Thanks for sharing this with us. I think there should be a limit of expresion on what is shown in a train station or published in a book or newspaper. E.G in Germany it's not possible to raise your hand naz salute style. In Switzerland you can not deny any holocaust, including the armenian. In French public schools you can not dress exactly as you want. In Spain a newspaper that had proven economic ties with the basque terrorist group ETA was closed by a court....

In this particular case, I find the message tasteless, but in my personal opinion should not be banned. It reminds all of us that the deep south, the nazi Germany, the taliban and the fanatic basque supremacists are not that far away from each of us. It motivates me to go to vote when I have to. I think that for most SBB travellers the view is repugnant and in the medium and long term it will backfire thouse who paid money to put it there.
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  #88  
Old 18.08.2011, 07:52
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I would beg to disagree. It's not as offensive maybe, but the image of black boots marching over a Swiss flag is quite clear. There is a clear implication of the Swiss being the underdogs. There is even something vaguely military about those black boots. An invasion is being suggested. This is stronger than it has been in any campaign than I can remember.
It's interesting to see how the focus of the campaigns has changed. The "Black Sheep" campaign had the Sheep being kicked out of Switzerland towards the bottom right of the picture - on a conventional map, that would be in a southeastern direction, i.e. Kosovo, Turkey, Palestine, Sri Lanka. Message: "Kosovars, Muslims, Tamils out".

Now the new poster has the invaders coming from the top left of the picture (Northwest on a map), and some of them are obviously wearing business shoes and trousers. Message: "Germans, French and other well-educated people taking the good jobs for less money (as well as making everything impossibly expensive for the average Swiss Joe) out."
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  #89  
Old 18.08.2011, 08:48
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I'm already getting on a train, how far do they want me to go !?!
Out of WiFi range is good enough for now....
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  #90  
Old 18.08.2011, 08:58
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Message: "Germans, French and other well-educated people taking the good jobs for less money (as well as making everything impossibly expensive for the average Swiss Joe) out."
If they are making less money than a Swiss would, how are they putting upward pressure on prices? Housing prices maybe....
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  #91  
Old 18.08.2011, 09:00
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

Oh and another thing. It might make you feel like a happy camper getting lots of good folk pressing their "Thanks" buttons with another SVP bashing thread about sheep, minarets, filthy foreigners etc. but if you truly have something new to say, why don't you get politically active and vote for someone that represents your opinions or raise the issues that you feel concerns this nation?

If you'd like to increase public spending, open the borders to everyone, join the EU and give up the Swiss Franc, I'm sure that the SP would welcome you with open arms and relieve you of some donations to their party. Maybe you can bake some cakes and knit some red pullovers to hand out to everyone who supports your cause and then come October you can distribute leaflets and talk to the proletariat about your wonderful utopian world where we're all equals in one big mass commune helping each other making lentil soup and praising our allotment vegetables.

Or you might actually consider why Switzerland is what it is today; a well balanced financial powerhouse with low unemployment, low criminal activity, where bureaucracy and freedom of choice is the envy of other developed nations. Take a look around you and feel free to get involved. The SVP get their third of the vote because they don't sit around on their butts hoping for votes, they actively go out there with policies. I may not always support their lack of subtlety and their rather rural rhetoric, but I know what I'm going to get when my check mark hits the voting papers.
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  #92  
Old 18.08.2011, 09:02
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I received a reply from the SBB.

Basically they say "It's out of our hands if the poster is not extremely offensive".

...

Freundliche Grüsse
Yvonne Wohlfender
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  #93  
Old 18.08.2011, 09:07
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I think that for most SBB travellers the view is repugnant
I think for most SBB travellers the view will range from "Meh" to "Interesting, but..."
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  #94  
Old 18.08.2011, 09:38
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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If they are making less money than a Swiss would, how are they putting upward pressure on prices? Housing prices maybe....
They are prepared to settle for lower salaries while still paying higher rents, ie, they must be saving less or saving money by shopping in Germany maybe?

In our company we get quite a lot of foreign managers on temporary placement, often from places like India. I don't think they come here to make much money but they are here because it's good for their CV. Because they are only here for a short while they don't have time to look for a decent appartment at a decent price and some of them are frankly being ripped of by the landlords and rental agencies. They often live in suboptimal appartments in boring places but pay rent through the nose as if it was a luxury appartment in a prime location. I can well imagine why their Swiss neighbours are less than pleased.
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Old 18.08.2011, 09:38
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

So? She used to live here. Does living away preclude one from finding SVP posters offensive or from taking an interest in Swiss politics? There is nothing in the EF posting rules to say otherwise.

Cheers,
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But you dont even live in CH!
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Old 18.08.2011, 09:43
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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So? She used to live here. Does living away preclude one from finding SVP posters offensive or from taking an interest in Swiss politics? There is nothing in the EF posting rules to say otherwise.

Cheers,
Nick
No, but this petition was specifically aimed at removing a poster from one specific location although it would still be permitted in other locations. It was not aimed at having it removed generally. So one can wonder why she is so concerned about that one location if she isn't affected personally.

But then it is her right to complain just as much as it is anybody else's, and she may have further reasons that are not obvious, or she may have misunderstood, or she may think it's a small step in the right direction. So I wouldn't dwell on that aspect.
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Old 18.08.2011, 10:01
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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They are prepared to settle for lower salaries while still paying higher rents, ie, they must be saving less or saving money by shopping in Germany maybe?

In our company we get quite a lot of foreign managers on temporary placement, often from places like India. I don't think they come here to make much money but they are here because it's good for their CV. Because they are only here for a short while they don't have time to look for a decent appartment at a decent price and some of them are frankly being ripped of by the landlords and rental agencies. They often live in suboptimal appartments in boring places but pay rent through the nose as if it was a luxury appartment in a prime location. I can well imagine why their Swiss neighbours are less than pleased.
Like I said, housing prices maybe, but not 'everything'.
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  #98  
Old 18.08.2011, 10:47
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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No, but this petition was specifically aimed at removing a poster from one specific location although it would still be permitted in other locations. It was not aimed at having it removed generally. So one can wonder why she is so concerned about that one location if she isn't affected personally.

But then it is her right to complain just as much as it is anybody else's, and she may have further reasons that are not obvious, or she may have misunderstood, or she may think it's a small step in the right direction. So I wouldn't dwell on that aspect.
As much as I am happy to be out of Switzerland, I do have it in my heart though. And since I am going to be back eventually, I have CH's politic and futur at heart too.

So yes, it doesn't affect me, not now. Maybe it will in the futur. But it does affect people in the country, in the area.

To not be there doesn't stop me to have interest in those subjects and certainly doesn't stop me to have an opinion about them.
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Old 18.08.2011, 11:15
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

The SVP should branch out into art and compile an album from their cartoon-like posters and flyers. There is wider tolerance towards controversial messages when presented as art and so there would no doubt be fewer complaints if the black sheep with black shoes treading the Swiss flag and stealing passports starred in a syndicated comic strip (perhaps a partnership with Blick can be forged). But it is also true that complaints are the SVP's best publicity so they will probably stick to their current form of expression.
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Old 18.08.2011, 11:25
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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The SVP should branch out into art and compile an album from their cartoon-like posters and flyers. There is wider tolerance towards controversial messages when presented as art and so there would no doubt be fewer complaints if the black sheep with black shoes treading the Swiss flag and stealing passports starred in a syndicated comic strip (perhaps a partnership with Blick can be forged). But it is also true that complaints are the SVP's best publicity so they will probably stick to their current form of expression.
There is one thing that is better for them than complaints and that is censorship. He who censors something has something to hide. Being censored is the dream of every author or artist because it means he or she is controversial and hence gets attention and free publicity.

SVP has of course perfectioned the art of assymetric warfare. They know how to pull strings and trick their opponents into doing and saying extremely stupid things that in the end benefit them.
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