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  #121  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:47
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I do hope that the will of the people to remain free will always be sufficiently strong that they will never voluntarily take such a step.
Aye! One of the few American politicians that I have any time for, Benjamin Franklin: They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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  #122  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:47
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Good, as long as we can agree that it is a democratic decision that is majority based and backed up by the constitution. I guess then our freedom of speech is to bitch and complain as much as we want about the racist SVP posters and it is thier freedom of speech to post them as much as they want, until the Law is changed. Commercial organisations will follow the law, not an outraged minority.
Except, a commercial organisation could possibly decide to not want those images, those opinions being associate with by respect to their customers.

Of course, if the commercial organisation's only purpose is to gain money without any other concerns, you get the answer the OP got. Thankfully enough many commercial organisations do have respect for their customer and won't associate with offending campain.

Now if the only concern here is only one poster and it is about stopping the mass immigration, I can't say much.

DB told me once it was better to know what they are thinking and what are their strategies. I agree with this. Which goes in contradiction with my belief that not everything is good to say.

Yeah, not an easy debate. Let's say I hate it, I don't want them but I have to accept it for the sake of knowing their intentions.
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  #123  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:50
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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And now we have an SVP politician attacked by 2 Kosovar brothers and having his throat cut. Have to say, this doesn't do their countrymen any favours at all, and just fuels the SVP's diatribes.
This is the price of freedom of speech.

You say what you want to say, but be aware of consequences from nutters.
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  #124  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:52
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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So you want to ban all their posters?
Why not go the whole hog and round up all the voters as well?
We could just ban the most offensive political parties, one at a time.

Then there would be just the one that could dictate do exactly what the public wanted. There'd be no complaints then.
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  #125  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:54
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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We could just ban the most offensive political parties, one at a time.

Then there would be just the one that could dictate do exactly what the public wanted. There'd be no complaints then.
Yeah, let's do that! You have Mubarak's number perhaps? I heard he was not busy these days...
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  #126  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:56
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Except, a commercial organisation could possibly decide to not want those images, those opinions being associate with by respect to their customers.
As far as I understand, SBB is a nationally owned (by all of the cantons) and thus will not and cannot play any one party against each other. Imagine if they banned SVP posters but allowed other political parties to advertise? Holly shit, SBB are playing politics!!!

If a political party as big as the SVP wants to advertise there and a minority group want to protest that, honestly, who do you think that the organisation should side with? The correct answer is neither.

SBB are not responsible or accountable for the content of posters that are put up within their stations as long as they are not illegal.

As much as people like you and me may not like these posters, they represent the mouth peice of a not insignificant group of people in the country that do have their right to freedom or expression.
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  #127  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:56
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Except, a commercial organisation could possibly decide to not want those images, those opinions being associate with by respect to their customers.
Only the station is owned by SBB, which is owned by the state. Should state-owned organisations exert political bias?

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Of course, if the commercial organisation's only purpose is to gain money without any other concerns, you get the answer the OP got. Thankfully enough commercial organisations do have respect for their customer and won't associate with offending campain.
Or cave in to the demands of the mob? That is erosion of democracy.

Voltaire said "I don't agree with what you say, but I am prepared to die in defence of your right to say it".

Maybe his modern day equivalent would retort "I don't actually mind what you say, but some people are making a noise so I'll abolish your right to say it".l
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  #128  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:56
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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This is the price of freedom of speech.

You say what you want to say, but be aware of consequences from nutters.
Don't be so naive, Nil. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. But has everything to do with 2 drunken scumbags, who happen to be Kosovars (as all the papers are so desperate to inform us).
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  #129  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:58
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Should state-owned organisations exert political bias?
Never, hence lies to the road (railway) to corruption!!!
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  #130  
Old 19.08.2011, 13:59
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Don't be so naive, Nil. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. But has everything to do with 2 drunken scumbags, who happen to be Kosovars (as all the papers are so desperate to inform us).
Ok, call me naive on this one. But how often freedom of speech was the reason of physical attack of some nutters? Too often.

And how should I know the reason they attack the guy? You didn't put a link of your affirmation.
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  #131  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:04
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Ok, call me naive on this one. But how often freedom of speech was the reason of physical attack of some nutters? Too often.
And how often were supressed issues or things that people couldn't or weren't allowed to talk about the cause of violence?

And even if you're right. Is peace really more valuable than freedom?

The people who tore down the Berlin Wall didn't think so.
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  #132  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:07
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

I know, I know....

Look I started being completely against the whole thing and with this discussion, I began to change my mind and see your point of view.

Now, I am going to take a break, enjoy a good sunbathing and think about this whole thing.

Adios
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  #133  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:08
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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But how often freedom of speech was the reason of physical attack of some nutters?
I would not imagine very often actually but if you have proof in some other way I am happy to have a look at it.

Plus, look at it this way. The more freedom we have, the easier it is for all of the idiots to get themselves killed which means a higher proportion of more intelligent people in the world.

Nil, none of us disagree with you that the SVP posters are distasteful and that SVP are generally known for this sort of tactic.

I think the point that most of us are trying to get across is that:
Commercial, especially state owned, organisations should not get involved in politics or have a political bias.
Freedom of speech is a key part of the constitution and eroding it in any way at all is a very dangerous slippery slope to take. (Look at what the terrorism and patriot acts have done to civil liberties in the UK and the US, all for the desire for political correctness and security).
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  #134  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:09
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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And how often were supressed issues or things that people couldn't or weren't allowed to talk about the cause of violence?
And lead to stupid laws where we are banned from hearing somebody's voice unless it is dubbed by an actor. Do we really want that for Switzerland too?
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  #135  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:10
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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enjoy a good sunbathing
Now see, being stuck in an office, I find that offensive.
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  #136  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:12
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I would not imagine very often actually but if you have proof in some other way I am happy to have a look at it.

Plus, look at it this way. The more freedom we have, the easier it is for all of the idiots to get themselves killed which means a higher proportion of more intelligent people in the world.

Nil, none of us disagree with you that the SVP posters are distasteful and that SVP are generally known for this sort of tactic.

I think the point that most of us are trying to get across is that:
Commercial, especially state owned, organisations should not get involved in politics or have a political bias.
Freedom of speech is a key part of the constitution and eroding it in any way at all is a very dangerous slippery slope to take. (Look at what the terrorism and patriot acts have done to civil liberties in the UK and the US, all for the desire for political correctness and security).
I understand that too. Look, being a member of the minority they too often bash is playing on my emotional response to this particular topic. It annoyes me no end.

But I got your point of view. I kind of agree with it but it crash with my opinion that not everything is good to say.
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  #137  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:18
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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I understand that too. Look, being a member of the minority they too often bash is playing on my emotional response to this particular topic. It annoyes me no end.

But I got your point of view. I kind of agree with it but it crash with my opinion that not everything is good to say.
Maybe it's just that emotions and politics don't mix.
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  #138  
Old 19.08.2011, 14:22
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

It is THAT fine line again - between rights and responsibilities- a very fine line between having the right to express yourself, and inciting hatred. Don't forget that very influencable kids and teenagers also see those posters. Some will be indifferent, some will see it as a good excuse to bully those who are different, and some will be so embarrassed that they will bend over backwards to be friendly to foreigners (as I did as a child when confronted with so much racism against the italians and Spanish immigrants who arrived here).
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  #139  
Old 19.08.2011, 16:09
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Maybe it's just that emotions and politics don't mix.
I don't agree! Emotions and passion are what make men and women do great things! Even in Politic.
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  #140  
Old 19.08.2011, 16:17
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Re: Complain to the SBB about the posters

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Emotions and passion are what make men and women do great things!
Ghandi - Hitler
Mandela - Saloth Sar

I don't know, both great good and great bad. I honestly prefer this bunch:


About as unemotional as they get and a stable government for over 160 years!!!

Honestly, passion and emotion are two different things for me. I can be emotional about something (rasist posters and how much I hate them) and passionate about something else (freedom of speech) and not let the two of them cross over. Passion in government is okay but emotion, nope.

By the way, are you not supposed to be lying in the sun?
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