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Old 03.09.2011, 13:24
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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So now the kid is shrieking "Aaaaaaah!!!!!!", the dog is barking "rawr rawr rawr I'm gonna get you!" I'm rolling my eyes "ugh" and the parents are looking at me like I've done something wrong.

I just got back in from a more pleasant walk. A couple were outside holding their infant. Infant sees my big, scary pooch and points at it. Parents say, "dass ist ein Hund!" and coo positively. My dog's tail starts wagging him and he gets all goofy as he moves in for a sniff. Meanwhile the infant is still pointing at the dog and looking so adorable, and the parents were all smiles, the dog was all smiles, I was all smiles...

Ahhh.... that soooooooo made up for yesterday. I feel better now.
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  #42  
Old 03.09.2011, 14:05
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

Grow up. Petty.

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I just got back in from a more pleasant walk. A couple were outside holding their infant. Infant sees my big, scary pooch and points at it. Parents say, "dass ist ein Hund!" and coo positively. My dog's tail starts wagging him and he gets all goofy as he moves in for a sniff. Meanwhile the infant is still pointing at the dog and looking so adorable, and the parents were all smiles, the dog was all smiles, I was all smiles...

Ahhh.... that soooooooo made up for yesterday. I feel better now.
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Old 03.09.2011, 14:15
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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Grow up. Petty.
Huh? What was wrong with that post?
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Old 03.09.2011, 14:36
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

[QUOTE=meloncollie;1325752]Busby, while I understand and truly sympathize with anyone suffering from a phobia, and will do all I can to help you or avoid causing you distress, please understand that the law in Switzerland not only allows dogs to be off lead*, but specifically encourages owners to do so.


When you see a dog off lead, simple call ahead 'Ruf Ihr Hund, bitte!'. If necessary, explain that you have a phobia.





Sorry, but this is what we with dog phobias (if that's at all right) always hear. What dog owners don't understand is that we don't care if the dog is friendly, playful, excited, hungry or whatever. We just don't want to be confronted with what for us is a dangerous animal waiting for a chance to jump on us. Why should we explain that we don't like what we see ahead?
Ever since that 6 year-old lad was ripped to pieces in Oberglatt nothing has been done to get dogs under control in spite of all political promises - fitting them out with a chip is a laughable solution.
I don't hate or even dislike dogs, but I don't want them free in my way when I'm out and about.
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Old 03.09.2011, 14:42
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

What is wrong with that post, is the fact that the original post was stereotypical, and generalized to people of a certain colour, and feathers were ruffled. The fact that the OP's only concern is that a family with an infant loved her dog today, and that made her happy, seem a bit narcissistic.
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Old 03.09.2011, 15:07
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

dogs are quite useful in the village life, they take care of domesticated animals and fend of unwanted visitors, be it wolves or humans.

the relationship with the modern, solitary, lonely apartment dweller and his/her dog must be subject to psychiatric research. being treated like a human being changes the dog, and its owner too.

dogs, for millenia, were bred to be very loud and vicious towards foreigners. they come from wolves, and each dog still has a bit of that in itself. sometimes they tick off and hurt humans, no body knows why, but their human owners (should we say servants) blame the other humans for that. so weird...
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  #47  
Old 03.09.2011, 15:11
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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What is wrong with that post, is the fact that the original post was stereotypical, and generalized to people of a certain colour, and feathers were ruffled. The fact that the OP's only concern is that a family with an infant loved her (sic) dog today, and that made her (sic) happy, seem a bit narcissistic.
Yes, it was stereotypical and generalizing, I plainly and freely admitted it. I didn't make any excuses for it. But if you re-read it, you'll also see that I made note that there were exceptions. The original post received 4 groans and people got their lumps in to zing me with their opinions regarding the appropriateness of pointing out skin color versus leaving it at cultural differences. Points well made and taken.

SOME chose only to focus in on the race card -- yourself included, and you also chose to narrow the scope to just ONE color, which was putting words in my mouth. Those who focused on the race still neglected to focus on the actual problem that I raised in this thread. I accept this as my fault because in this manner of expressing my observations only served to detract from the conversation. Thus I willingly take my lumps already dolled out.

But back to the topic of the thread, which has to do with conditioning children for behaviors that will not only keep things more pleasant, but also keep them safer when encountering dogs on the street.

I'll reference to this:

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The girl had kept looking behind them to check where we were and hadn't noticed the other dog at first, but when she did, she screamed and started loudly crying right away... FINALLY her mother picked her up and took her to the other side of the street.

Now, my problem with this scenario isn't the girl but rather her mother.
This is the scenario that happens over and over and over, and each time, the PARENT IS REWARDING THE CHILD FOR THE BAD BEHAVIOR, therein teaching them that over-dramatized fear in reaction to the site of a dog is an appropriate response. In this example, the parent has rewarded the child by picking her up, which depending on the method, is a form of rescue, protection, and affection.

Any person, regardless of race, color, creed, culture, religion, national origin, sex, gender, sexual orientation, blood type, shoe size, or hair density is capable of this behavior. The acts of arm-flailing, shrieking, running, wailing, crying, frozen-in-place paranoia are innate human behaviors communicating fear.

How those behaviors are encouraged or repressed is nurture. THAT is what the focus of this conversation should be on.
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Old 09.09.2011, 12:54
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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Sorry, but this is what we with dog phobias (if that's at all right) always hear. What dog owners don't understand is that we don't care if the dog is friendly, playful, excited, hungry or whatever. We just don't want to be confronted with what for us is a dangerous animal waiting for a chance to jump on us. Why should we explain that we don't like what we see ahead?
Ever since that 6 year-old lad was ripped to pieces in Oberglatt nothing has been done to get dogs under control in spite of all political promises - fitting them out with a chip is a laughable solution.
I don't hate or even dislike dogs, but I don't want them free in my way when I'm out and about.
Busby, while I understand how difficult it is when one suffers from a phobia, while I honestly sympathize...

...please understand that the dog owners whose well-trained dogs are off-lead are well within their rights under the law.

Switzerland is so densely populated, we have to share the same crowded spaces - so we need to find ways to get along. Which means trying to understand and respect both sides - and that takes communication.

Is your discomfort with all dogs off lead, even in the distance?

If you have difficulty with a dog in the distance being off lead, some dog owners might see your request to re-leash as unreasonable unless you tell him/her that you have a phobia. Please understand that few people can read minds. Most dog owners, once made aware of your difficulties, will be more than willing to help you by recalling their dogs. "Please re-leash, I have a dog-phobia" is usually all it takes. I know it is difficult to react when you are phobic, but please try to give the dog owner a chance to help you.

If the problem is with off-lead dogs approaching you, your complaint is perfectly understandable, and you are in the right in such a case. This should not happen. I know there are dog owners who don't get it, the 'He just wants to say hi!' brigade. These folks are wrong, rude, and irresponsible.

As you are in canton ZH**, you might be interested in the ZH Hundegesezt:, particularly paragraph C, point 9.1-2

C. Hundehaltung
§ 9. 1 Hunde sind so zu halten, zu führen und zu beaufsichtigen, dass sie
a. weder Mensch noch Tier gefährden, belästigen oder in der bestim- mungsgemässen und sicheren Nutzung des frei zugänglichen Rau- mes beeinträchtigen,
b. die Umwelt nicht gefährden.

2 In Wäldern und an Waldrändern sowie bei Dunkelheit im Freien
sind Hunde in Sichtweite auf kurzer Distanz zu halten. 3 Es ist verboten, Hunde
a. auf Menschen und Tiere zu hetzen,
b. absichtlich zu reizen,
c. im frei zugänglichen Raum unbeaufsichtigt laufen zu lassen.


Rough translation:

9.1 Dogs are to be kept, led and supervised so that they:

a. Do not threaten or harass people or other animals, nor interfere with the safety or intended use of freely accessible spaces.
b. Do not endanger the environment.

2. In forests and in on the edges of forests dogs should be kept in sight and within a short distance.

3. It is forbidden:
a. To send a dog to chase a person or animal
b. To use a dog to intentionally irritate a person or animal
c. To allow a dog to run unattended


http://www2.zhlex.zh.ch/appl/zhlex_r.nsf/WebView/3B56A8C2326D4D97C125768E00468B21/$File/554.5_14.4.08_67.pdf

(Can't seem to make the link work, sorry...)

Please note that the terms 'under control, kept at short distance, forbidden from running unattended' do not mean on a leash. Voice/signal control is sufficient for a well-trained dog. A dog walking off-lead to heel, or one who recalls right away when given the command is indeed under control in the eyes of the law. The point here is that the owner must have the dog in sight, must be aware of where the dog is, and is likely to go - and must direct the dog appropriately.

If a dog is not sufficiently trained to recall on command, he should be on lead.

So there is no excuse for a dog making contact with you without your permission. If one does, quote ZH Hundegesetz 9.1.a to the irresponsible owner.

But also note that a dog simply running off lead at reasonable a distance from you, or politely walking by the owner's side as you pass close by, is not considered out of control. And, as discussed before, under the federal animal welfare law dogs should be given off-lead exercise daily (assuming sufficient training and socialization, and except in SZ.)

Yes I know there are a few bad dog owners - they make my blood boil, too. But most of us really do try to be respectful and polite, we train our dogs, we keep our dogs under control. We all - dog owners and folks who are not dog fans alike - just need to understand where the other person is coming from, and try to figure out a way to co-exist.

----

**Please note that this applies only to ZH; as discussed many times before dog control is the competency of the cantons, each has it's own laws.

--

Wishing you all the best, Busby - as said, I do understand phobias.

Last edited by meloncollie; 09.09.2011 at 13:21.
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  #49  
Old 09.09.2011, 13:46
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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(then there's the other topic of -- why do some adults go out of their way, stumbling over garbage bags, broken glass, hot coals, snake pits, and Pee Wee Herman's Funhouse to get as far away from passing a dog on the sidewalk as is possible.)
Hehe! I am picturing my mother in a similar situation ! I personally haven't picked this one up!
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Old 09.09.2011, 13:52
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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What is wrong with that post, is the fact that the original post was stereotypical, and generalized to people of a certain colour, and feathers were ruffled. The fact that the OP's only concern is that a family with an infant loved her dog today, and that made her happy, seem a bit narcissistic.
I saw it as good balance to his first post actually. If he were petty, he wouldn't have been man enough to report a subsequent positive experience.

Plenty of people chuck out a thread about how shite something is then when they have a good experience they're nowhere to be seen.

Think you need to re-read the definition of "petty".
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  #51  
Old 09.09.2011, 14:00
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

Interesting thread .. and interesting replies .............

Yes, I have seen this behaviour in children.

My own grand-daughter was afraid of dogs (her brother was afraid of pigs, but that`s another story for another time) ....... until I showed her how to - and how not to - approach or not approach dogs. Now, as a young pre-teen she understands and loves dogs, volunteering her dog-walking services to everyone in the village.... some of those dogs I would not be happy about picking up their giant sized (warm yugh) poos!

In Dubai I saw what the OP described. I found a small puppy sitting on the pavement across the road, crying and wailing in front of a gate. The "gate-keeper" informed me the owner did not want it and he had been instructed to put it outside. In the 55c heat .....abandoned.

So I took it home to my sons house.

A week later other neighbors arrived to visit. Their 5 and 7yr old daughters began screaming and jumped up on the furniture in terror of this pup. I asked them what was wrong ..... "It has TEETH!...and it`s not tied up!" they screamed.

But I knew they also had a small dog at home. Oh, their dog is kept tied up, inside the house, and only taken for walks by the parents, and it has no teeth. I met them on one of their walks ...... their dog was crazy .... anti-social ..... It spent its life tied to a chair inside the house, and fed soup.

There are NO animal rescue services in the Emirates - abandoned animals live on the outskirts of the cities, in the desert, and teenagers tie them to the back of cars and "drag" race for fun. They are just "creatures" that happen to be alive.

They come into the cities at night to seek food. No wonder people fear them... they become "wild" .... in their efforts at survival.

Cats roam and breed by the thousands. When I was leaving the UAE, I read that the city councils were solving the problem of them eating the garbage ........ by installing underground garbage bins with electronic lids. (Simpler than sterilizing?)

When the temperatures were in the upper 50`s I saw water carrier trucks delivering water to a golf course to water the lawns ...... I saw dozens of camels arriving and standing around seeking the water. Not a drop was ever offered to those camels ...... it was all sealed in the truck and dispensed thru hoses to sealed units.

Unfortunately ... some countries, by their examples, instill this disrespect for animals.

This is just my observation of something regarding the understanding of how different types of people are raised to have/have no respect for creatures who share our space on this planet.
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:20
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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...(then there's the other topic of -- why do some adults go out of their way, stumbling over garbage bags, broken glass, hot coals, snake pits, and Pee Wee Herman's Funhouse to get as far away from passing a dog on the sidewalk as is possible.)...
Bad experiences engendered by irresponsible dog owners.

A bit of understanding from dog owners that not everyone loves dogs, and that it is no way a character deficiency to not go gooey over canines at every opportunity, would be nice. I have no fear of dogs. I even appreciate some individual specimens. I certainly wouldn't mistreat one; but as a species, I don't like them, never have.

Dog owners are even worse .

(Stereotyping enough? )
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:40
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

As much as it broke my heart not bringing my giant, 180 pound, guileless Saint Bernard with us when we moved, the more I read about the trials and tribulations of owners of even the smallest of snack food-sized dogs, the more I see that it was the only sensible thing to do. Dogs that are the size of a small pony draw so much negative attention, even with the stupid Beethoven movies, since there are so many folks who just don't understand how and why dogs behave the way they do.

Those with small children who are afraid of dogs, if you teach them nothing else about how to behave around a dog, is that they shouldn't run away as it's the dog's instinct to chase. Fear alone isn't useful, but understanding how and when a dog might bite them is.
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:41
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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Busby, while I understand how difficult it is when one suffers from a phobia, while I honestly sympathize...

...please understand that the dog owners whose well-trained dogs are off-lead are well within their rights under the law.

Switzerland is so densely populated, we have to share the same crowded spaces - so we need to find ways to get along. Which means trying to understand and respect both sides - and that takes communication.

Is your discomfort with all dogs off lead, even in the distance?


Wishing you all the best, Busby - as said, I do understand phobias.

If it were that easy Meloncollie ... but basically I don't care what the law says, it's no help to me. I'd prefer it if dogs would be on a leash at all times and that there would be a lot fewer of them. I live surrounded by woods and like to go walking but as you can guess there are dogs running around quite freely -although dogs have to be kept on a lead in woods at all times as far as I know.

Clearly I don't like to shout out and make public that I have a dog phobia. I have now and again asked that the dog be placed on a lead, and, as you can imagine, the immediate answer is always 'Oh, he won't do anything'.

Yes, it's simple, a dog off the lead even a little one at a distance of 200 meters is a small nightmare for me. It's always been the same for me and I see that my grandson has the same problem. Can it lie in the genes?
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:42
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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Bad experiences engendered by irresponsible dog owners.

A bit of understanding from dog owners that not everyone loves dogs, and that it is no way a character deficiency to not go gooey over canines at every opportunity, would be nice. I have no fear of dogs. I even appreciate some individual specimens. I certainly wouldn't mistreat one; but as a species, I don't like them, never have.

Dog owners are even worse .

(Stereotyping enough? )
On my little holiday at the seaside a small yappy dog ran at me, snapping at my ankles. The girl owner kept saying "It`s okay, she won`t bite you" ...... Yeeah yeah, I know little dogs, and this one, every time I turned my back to try and walk away, shot back at my ankles, circling round and round me to get to the back of my feet. I would have liked to have kicked its teeth in, but my inate gentle nature merely responded by saying "Get your stuffing dog under effing control you stupid cow".

What I do enjoy though, at outdoor restaurants (where you can smoke in peace) .. is to watch the expressions on those eating when they find a big huge friendly panting slobbering dog trying to ingratiate itself into their company while they eat - and the oblivious and/or adoring expressions on the dog-owners face. They really are clue-less, some of them, huh?
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:43
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

When we lived in Basel, I was with my then 2 year old at the Vita Parcours in Lange Erlen. A couple with 3 large-ish dogs (one Great Dane and two of similar size) off-leash came past and the three of them came right up to my son's face and while not aggressive, you can imagine he got a fright.

When I told the owners off for not having their dogs under control in a frequently used public area their response was "your child should be under control". There was no attempt at an apology. For the record my son was holding my hand and cowering behind me - so how much more under control he should have been I will never know. Certainly we did nothing at all to encourage or provoke those dogs.

In my book, if you bring dogs to a public place and they don't respond reliably to command then you evaluate the situation if people or kids are approaching and decide in time to put them on a lead. If strangers are visibly nervous of your dogs you try to put them at ease and call the dog to heel - and if your dogs commit a transgression like jumping up at someone etc then you apologise.

The most annoying part for me is it gave him a fear of dogs - large and small - as once we find a decent place with a large enough garden etc I would like to consider getting a dog.

The story has a happy ending - some friends of ours have a really lovely dog and we took a walk with them and their dog and my son played fetch with her. And at a recent Hash run one of the runners brought his dog and he was happy to stroke it and play. In fact the other day he asked me if he can have a dog.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:47
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

Well at least you admit it. Now why don´t YOU go and get some treatment and modify your behaviour rather than ask 1000´s of dog owners to change.
Unbelievable!!




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If it were that easy Meloncollie ... but basically I don't care what the law says, it's no help to me. I'd prefer it if dogs would be on a leash at all times and that there would be a lot fewer of them. I live surrounded by woods and like to go walking but as you can guess there are dogs running around quite freely -although dogs have to be kept on a lead in woods at all times as far as I know.

Clearly I don't like to shout out and make public that I have a dog phobia. I have now and again asked that the dog be placed on a lead, and, as you can imagine, the immediate answer is always 'Oh, he won't do anything'.

Yes, it's simple, a dog off the lead even a little one at a distance of 200 meters is a small nightmare for me. It's always been the same for me and I see that my grandson has the same problem. Can it lie in the genes?
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:48
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

Some very entertaining reading in this thread... IMHO, there are plenty of irresponsible owners out there, and they are the ones that give the rest a bad name.
Lots of children grow up without having any interaction with dogs (especially in the big cities); add to that a set of parents that are scarred to death that their children could be mauled by every passing dog (they saw it once on the night news, so it must be true about all dogs)... and, there you have it: the perfect combination for a child that fears dogs more than the monster in the closet.

On a side note, kids used to love my Great Dane... not only they were not running away, but straight towards him and hang from his neck for minutes
(parents were still scared... and still screaming "murder" )
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Old 09.09.2011, 14:58
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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..................... since there are so many folks who just don't understand how and why dogs behave the way they do.

Those with small children who are afraid of dogs, if you teach them nothing else about how to behave around a dog, is that they shouldn't run away as it's the dog's instinct to chase. Fear alone isn't useful, but understanding how and when a dog might bite them is.
Oooh yes! That is the BEST advice I have read here!

My experience of this ..... (sorry, I`m on a roll here now...).... I was with a friend and we were traversing a vacant lot, back in SA, when 2 huge Rottweilers lunged over a bank of a house growling and making straight for us...very agressive behaviour.

My friend, who bred and raised Huskies, said to me "Stand still, do not look in their eyes, act bored!"

Against my instincts I had to obey her, otherwise diea horrible death!

Ja, they ran at us.... then hesitated ... strolled up, sniffed us .. and ambled back to their garden.

Another "trick" I learned, with a strange dog who approaches, do not hold out your hand with fingers extended (no eye contact - that is "agression" to a dog).. keep your fingers tucked inside your hand and extend a fist for them to smell.

As an owner ... to introduce your dog to a stranger, rub your hands over their hands, then allow your dog to sniff their hand (fist, no fingers).
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Old 09.09.2011, 15:06
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Re: Teaching Children to Fear Dogs

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Well at least you admit it. Now why don´t YOU go and get some treatment and modify your behaviour rather than ask 1000´s of dog owners to change.
Unbelievable!!

Typical - it's my fault!!

I suppose all those children and adults who have had their faces and other parts of their bodies ripped off were also at fault.

I suppose those yapping, snarling, bissige Appenzeller dogs on the wanderwege who get their teeth into my trousers are also my fault.

Look, keep all dogs on leads at all times and everywhere and no-one will be at fault.
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