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  #21  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:05
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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fanatic atheists
I've always wondered what one would call a fanatic atheist.
An atheistist?
A Dawkinsist?
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  #22  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:06
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I partially agree, I hate it when my cousin comes to visit and starts praying after lunch and reading the bible and having secret meetings in my house that I happen to forget and go for a nap...that is impossing your beliefs, but askign where to find kosher chocolate is like asking where can I find brown sugar (albeit not that common a question) and no one is impossing their beliefs really...to me they are asking an honest question. Why do people get so offended? I do not see it.
Besides, this is not only seen in religious threads, if I remember correctly, I asked where I could find slim fast stuff and I also got judged by that, when I only asked where can I find it and not do you think it is a good idea? Really...
This, for me, is the issue. When people impose their beliefs on you. If it just is mentioned in passing in a conversation, not a problem. There are many beliefs in the world ... and many different people. Variety, they say, is the spice of life. And speaking of food, to some food is a religion ... you MUST eat this, you MUSTN'T eat that! That can be a bit OTT at times too.
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  #23  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:13
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Maybe because the number of deaths and the amount of detriment to human progress directly attributable to religion exceeds that of football, TV and playgroups put together and multiplied by a million...so maybe some people feel strongly when religion begins to expand into relatively harmless/neutral things such as chocolates.
I can't see how atheists can claim to be much better: the top two killers in history are: Mao (40million) and Stalin (20 million) both of whom were were communists, i.e. atheists.
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Old 12.09.2011, 23:16
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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This, for me, is the issue. When people impose their beliefs on you. If it just is mentioned in passing in a conversation, not a problem. There are many beliefs in the world ... and many different people. Variety, they say, is the spice of life. And speaking of food, to some food is a religion ... you MUST eat this, you MUSTN'T eat that! That can be a bit OTT at times too.
No-one can impose their beliefs on you. You can, however, allow them to impose their beliefs on you.

I find that people just want to talk. So let them talk. Talk is cheap .. and free. And then you just go on with your life, your own beliefs with what works for you.

Most times believers of certain religions feel obliged to share their beliefs - in the belief that you need to hear it too, it is their obligation to their belief ........ to "spread the word". Let them talk, smile and nod. Sometimes .... it could be a "planting of a seed" ... or a "watering of an earlier planted seed" .....

Sometimes it could be something you may find useful later in life - in a time of spiritual need - you never can tell. Or it could be that by hearing themselves talk they find themselves an "empty and noisy vessel".

Tolerance is the key word when it comes to spiritual matters - everyone is different ... in their needs and desires.
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Old 12.09.2011, 23:17
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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This, for me, is the issue. When people impose their beliefs on you. If it just is mentioned in passing in a conversation, not a problem. There are many beliefs in the world ... and many different people. Variety, they say, is the spice of life. And speaking of food, to some food is a religion ... you MUST eat this, you MUSTN'T eat that! That can be a bit OTT at times too.
With all due respect, I did not get your point must be the full moon
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Old 12.09.2011, 23:19
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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No-one can impose their beliefs on you. You can, however, allow them to impose their beliefs on you.

I find that people just want to talk. So let them talk..
Up to a point I guess, take my exanple for instance, I invite my cousin over and she asks me if she can pray I say yes, then she prays and wants to include me and holds a meeting in my place, where she and her children discuss the bible and blah blah blah...that is a bit rude and trying to impose their beliefs IMHO
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Old 12.09.2011, 23:20
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I can't see how atheists can claim to be much better: the top two killers in history are: Mao (40million) and Stalin (20 million) both of whom were were communists, i.e. atheists.
YES! Of course their killing must have something to do with them being atheists...
It wasn't me, but you, too!?
I suggest you become a pirate to stop global warming!
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  #28  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:23
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Centuries of religion as a fundamental part of daily life, with the known consequences of religious wars, have really led the majority to adopt a separation of state and church.
Everything to do with religion seems to be either steeped in history and/or very extreme (ie the inquisition).
I believe it may be a reaction or rejection of its sheer oppressive weight.

Personally I love studying the history of religions, it's fascinating and is the source of so many of our daily habits and traditions. But I do understand that not everybody feels the same.
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  #29  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:25
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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No-one can impose their beliefs on you. You can, however, allow them to impose their beliefs on you.

I find that people just want to talk. So let them talk. Talk is cheap .. and free. And then you just go on with your life, your own beliefs with what works for you.

Most times believers of certain religions feel obliged to share their beliefs - in the belief that you need to hear it too, it is their obligation to their belief ........ to "spread the word". Let them talk, smile and nod. Sometimes .... it could be a "planting of a seed" ... or a "watering of an earlier planted seed" .....

Sometimes it could be something you may find useful later in life - in a time of spiritual need - you never can tell. Or it could be that by hearing themselves talk they find themselves an "empty and noisy vessel".

Tolerance is the key word when it comes to spiritual matters - everyone is different ... in their needs and desires.
It depends on your background as to how tolerent you can be. I was dragged to church all through childhood, told I would go to the devil if I even thought something ungodly and basically told that life was about suffering and unhappiness because life in the 'hereafter' was what it was all about. Live the life of a saint and you would be rewarded. There was no 'tolerence' in my home for my questioning spirit, 'Why should I beleve this?', 'Why is our religion right and everyone else's wrong?' 'Why is science bad?' .... just a belief imposed. So when someone comes knocking on my door wanting to 'share' their religion with me, no, I don't stand there listening. I do politely tell them I'm not interested but I will not politely let them go on and on about issues I've already suffered though in life ... and deeply contemplated. I've see it destroy too many people around me.
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  #30  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:25
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Every few weeks, some hapless soul starts a thread on the English Forum seeking islamic accommodation, kosher chocolate, a church which observes the Saturday sabbath or some other niche product of a religious nature.

...

I eagerly await your responses.
The Gods of Atheism are displeased by your insolence.

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  #31  
Old 12.09.2011, 23:32
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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By the way,religious people should keep their beliefs to themselves, others shouldn't pander to their selfish needs and such nonsense should be kept out of sight of normal folk.

Where can I get doughnuts blessed by the Dalai Lama in Switzerland?

I eagerly await your responses.
@Prof T

Been tryna come up with a witty retort where I finally get to call you - jokingly, of course - a donut but nothing so far!

Need me some...er...light refreshment involving cola methinks!
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  #32  
Old 13.09.2011, 00:06
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Of course, in the context of DB's original question, the answer should be simple: if you're neither interested in, nor knowledgable about the availability of, kosher chocolate try something simple - don't read the thread.

Radical, I know ...

Then we can save the arguments over who's best at slaughtering innocents for threads such as this, and let people find the particular products they want without being pilloried about what was done by somebody who may or may not have claimed to believe the same thing as the person asking for their special item.

Oh, and while I haven't found doughnuts blessed by the Dalai Lama, I once spoke to a Tibetan singer who had met his sister ... if I get a signed copy of his CD, will that do?
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  #33  
Old 13.09.2011, 00:11
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Every few weeks, some hapless soul starts a thread on the English Forum seeking islamic accommodation, kosher chocolate, a church which observes the Saturday sabbath or some other niche product of a religious nature.

Invariably, such threads attract angry people who proclaim that religious people should keep their beliefs to themselves, that others shouldn't pander to their selfish needs, that such nonsense should be kept out of sight of normal folk, and so on and so forth.

One rarely sees such a viscerally vicious reaction to requests for information about a particular kind of football shirt, English language television, or playgroups for toddlers.

If there is a demand for something, somebody will offer it. It doesn't matter whether the product is a doughnut blessed by the Dalai Lama or an evening of meditation with the Clangers: where people want it, it will be sold. This is a pretty fundamental principle of commerce, surely?

Could one of the angry brigade, therefore, explain why religious products should be exempt from this simple exchange of commodities?

I eagerly await your responses.
I think a bit of the anger come from the fact that people aren't being killed, oppressed, or laws re-written in deference to football, English TV, or toddler's needs. Last time I checked the same cannot be said for religion.

I think a turning point has been reached where those of us in the reality-based community are more than a bit tired at having to constantly kowtow to the whims and wishes of those who are constantly asking for concessions to their particular flavor of the imaginary friend they happen to be worshiping at the moment.

I think it is a bit impossible to be a "fundamentalist atheist". Fundamentalism implies that you won't change your mind no matter what the circumstances. I'll be the first to tell you that if Jesus/Allah/Ra/Zeus/etc. shows up in my living room right now, I'll be the first to convert and sing their praises if the proof is there. Until then, the burden of proof is on the believer to prove that their deity exists, and they should prove that there is some actual rational basis for the ridiculous and arbitrary religious "laws" that extend to dietary, sexual, and other areas of life. They're the ones with that silly book and outfit, not me.

I think the claims of "atheist extremists" to be laughable also. "Extremists?" Really? Last time I checked, atheists who dare to speak their minds in a public forum are frequently given the "extremist" label. OTOH, religious extremists generally kill, torture, assault and do other nasty things to their fellow humans in the name of their religion. I think I'll pick being an "atheist extremist" any day of the week. You're never going to get anything more than a strongly worded response from me on matters of religion.

Best regards,

"#129892 of the Angry Brigade"
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  #34  
Old 13.09.2011, 00:13
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I think this is one recent example referred to:
Kosher chocolate
Thanks, i missed this one.

DB ... One trolling prick does not an anti-religious movement make. Don't feed it
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Old 13.09.2011, 00:13
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Oh, and while I haven't found doughnuts blessed by the Dalai Lama, I once spoke to a Tibetan singer who had met his sister ... if I get a signed copy of his CD, will that do?
If you copy it to a USB Stick that would be perfect.
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  #36  
Old 13.09.2011, 00:15
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

I don't know about Doughnuts Blessed by the Dalai Lama, but I once saw Brian Blessed by the Dalai Lama - they seemed to be getting on very well
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Old 13.09.2011, 00:27
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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The pizzeria near my house does a mean cannelloni blessed by the flying spaghetti monster


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askign where to find kosher chocolate is like asking where can I find brown sugar (albeit not that common a question) and no one is impossing their beliefs really...to me they are asking an honest question. Why do people get so offended? I do not see it.
Besides, this is not only seen in religious threads, if I remember correctly, I asked where I could find slim fast stuff and I also got judged by that, when I only asked where can I find it and not do you think it is a good idea? Really...
That annoys me to no end, in all threads and not just the religious ones. Granted that everyone is free/entitled to voice their own opinion, but FFS, if I start a thread asking where to find kosher chocolate, or where I can have a circumcision done, or where I can buy a particular brand of cigarettes, unless you (not you-you, hypothetical you) can provide an answer to my request for information, guess what? I am not asking you what you think about the issue, because frankly, I am not interested in your opinion!!! Just give the darn information, otherwise get off my thread (or get on a thread that asks for your opinion on the issue).

Regarding the issue brought up by the OP, I tend to agree with the idea that, if there is a market, why not? Supply and demand, economics 101.

I am all for "regulate it, sell it, and tax it".
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  #38  
Old 13.09.2011, 08:57
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

It's suppressed anger creeping through again (much like a thread regarding separation and divorce.)

Wishing you all peace and tolerance.

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  #39  
Old 13.09.2011, 09:10
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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...Granted that everyone is free/entitled to voice their own opinion, but FFS, if I start a thread asking where to find kosher chocolate, or where I can have a circumcision done, or where I can buy a particular brand of cigarettes, unless you (not you-you, hypothetical you) can provide an answer to my request for information, guess what? I am not asking you what you think about the issue, because frankly, I am not interested in your opinion!!!....
As an absolute statement - No.

Somewhere there is always a boundry. Imagine if you will someone on here asked about getting female circumcision done. Should we just provide the information uncritically? Male circumcision for non-medical reasons is already a contentous subject, just have a look in that thread.
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Old 13.09.2011, 09:36
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

I question the honesty of the question.
If the initial request for help to find a particular commodity/service etc is an innocent request, then there is no question that the advice if available should be given.
However, if the question is posed to provoke a debate about the religion involved then that gets right up my unusually large snout.
Therefore in answer to your question DB:-
Yeah err No , err I mean ...........
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