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  #81  
Old 13.09.2011, 13:07
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Do religious people offend you that much?
No.

However intolerance is universal and it's not only related to religion.
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  #82  
Old 13.09.2011, 13:09
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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You know, I'm not that fussed about tolerance. I don't care if you tolerate my beliefs or not.

I'm just curious as to what it is about kosher chocolate, islam-friendly hotels and sabbath-observing prayer groups that arouses people's ire so.

I can understand the controversy over halal butchery and circumcision - which is why I quite deliberately didn't mention them in the initial post. But chocolate? Hotel rooms? What could anybody find offensive about them?

I simply don't buy the argument that 'religion killed lots of people, so all manifestations of religion are bad'. Millions upon millions of people observe their religious practices every day without killing anyone. If they want to stay in a hotel with fellow believers or eat a special kind of biscuit or attend a meeting of like-minded souls, why on earth shouldn't they?

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but I just don't understand the anger that seems to pour out in response to such requests for information.

Do religious people offend you that much?
DB, is you new avatar basically saying "So many idiots, so few bulltes"?
The answer to your questions is within that line.
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  #83  
Old 13.09.2011, 13:26
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

I've not read most of this thread, but I'm the "hapless soul" who asked for Kosher Chocolate. (I have read the chocolate thread, and my comments are based on the discussion there).

Well, except I'm not hapless and I don't know if I have a soul. And I was surprised at the ire the request raised. I guess I never thought much about the implications of the request - how i was trying to manipulate society. As if.

The resulting discussion about Kosher Chocolate was illuminating. It is quite clear that there are a lot of bored and miserable people needing a resource such as EF to vent their various frustrations. Frankly, I'd rather eat chocolate - Kosher or not.

What's the point of getting angry at someone who wants Kosher chocolate, or Halal meat or a rosary? Do you think that the person seeking such is going to stop their search because persons unknown to them get their undies in a twist over some perceived wrong done to society as a result of the request? Not likely.

I am not a religious person. I think that people who are truly faithful, and devout are rarely harmful. When religion is used to exert power, and manipulate people, to segregate and harm others, then it is a problem - but it's no longer faith-based - then it's all about power used against others. I suppose you can frame Kosher chocolate within that scenario, I just don't know how. And I don't care.

Last edited by edot; 13.09.2011 at 13:38.
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  #84  
Old 13.09.2011, 13:31
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I've not read most of this thread, but I'm the "hapless soul" who asked for Kosher Chocolate.

It is quite clear that there are a lot of bored and miserable people needing a resource such as EF to vent their various frustrations.
Sorry, but how can you not have read the thread and then make assumptions about it.

Another reflection of life.......
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  #85  
Old 13.09.2011, 13:34
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I can understand the controversy over halal butchery and circumcision - which is why I quite deliberately didn't mention them in the initial post. But chocolate? Hotel rooms? What could anybody find offensive about them?
And therein lies the answer I think. I believe most people cannot draw the line between the two examples you gave. It is indeed a continuum, and different people will draw the line in different places.
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Old 13.09.2011, 13:38
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Sorry, but how can you not have read the thread and then make assumptions about it.

Another reflection of life.......
I've not read this thread. I have, however, read the chocolate thread in its entirety, which was the impetus for starting this thread. There's enough information in the chocolate thread, IMHO, to make an assessment. But thanks for pointing that out... I'll clarify my post. Although I suspect that if you'd read my post in its entirety you might have figured that out.

Reflection of life? Perhaps.
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Old 13.09.2011, 13:44
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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And therein lies the answer I think. I believe most people cannot draw the line between the two examples you gave. It is indeed a continuum, and different people will draw the line in different places.
Hmm... maybe it's beyond religion even - maybe it's anything that can be used to judge, categorize or pigeon-hole another person - whether or not we call this place Swiss, Geneva or Genf, whether we train our dog properly.... the examples are endless.
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  #88  
Old 13.09.2011, 14:15
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

But still any mention of religion or spirituality awakens such demons in some people that I’m starting to wonder if they do not perhaps have some unresolved issues themselves. If something infuriates them so much, how can they claim at the same time that they are indifferent to religion by virtue of being atheists?
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  #89  
Old 13.09.2011, 14:16
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Do religious people offend you that much?
It's not religious people. It's the damn hypocrites. And religion seems to be the main source of the hypocrisy I have to deal with.

How come thousands of Muslims protest against a few Mohammed cartoons but choose to remain silent when a bunch of idiots murder people in the name of their god?

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Unless your neighbor worships a different god. Or is gay. God created gays for the sole purpose of hating them...

But whatever. F the ten commandments or whatever rules come with your religion. You can make up for your sinning by confession. Or... err... eating kosher chocolate. Easy as that.

I'm a very tolerant and very curious person. I'm interested in how other people think. The privilege of being agnostic / atheist is that you can listen to everyone and live by certain values even if they may have originated in different religious believes without dealing with all the BS that comes with most religions.

My question, however, is to what extend am I obligated to tolerate intolerance?? Do I have to tolerate Christians that don't tolerate my gay friends? Do I have to tolerate Muslims who don't tolerate strong women (I'm not saying all of them do, but it DOES happen!)??

If there is no time to discuss a matter thoroughly, I choose to generally mock religion instead of generally tolerating it.
I may add that I distinguish between faith and religion. Everyone shall believe whatever they want. But religion is f*ing bullocks. And therefore shall be mocked.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:22
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I'm a very tolerant and very curious person.
Indeed.

So what's hypocritical about kosher chocolate, exactly, and how does the purchase (or sale) of such chocolate affect you?
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:23
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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My question, however, is to what extend am I obligated to tolerate intolerance?? Do I have to tolerate Christians that don't tolerate my gay friends? Do I have to tolerate Muslims who don't tolerate strong women (I'm not saying all of them do, but it DOES happen!)??
You don't have to tolerate anything (we're tolerable like that) but it's possible to tolerate a person's overall belief system while not tolerating an individual belief.

Or the other way round. It's OK to be unhappy that Jews killed Little Baby Jesus without having to diss their chocolate. What exactly are you tolerating here?
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  #92  
Old 13.09.2011, 14:31
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

I don't think people are necessarily offended by the fact that someone is searching for Kosher chocolate per se, but I think we have come to a point in our civilization where many people want to say ''enough is enough- we have let religion burn books and masterpieces, ban important, critical scientific research, kill intellectuals, wage vicious wars and effectively set humanity back possible thousands of years in terms of advancement, and we want no more''.

I know that seems dramatic especially when someone posts an innocent thread about chocolate, but the reality is that religion can have very powerful consequences even in today's modern world--look at George Bush and his denial of global warming, evolution, dislike of abortion and banning of stem-cell research. Can we afford today to let ideas such as this float around anymore, at the expense of not ''offending'' a few people?

I don't think it's unreasonable to voice opinions regarding religion in this context- to everyone, regardless of how harmless their query or beliefs might be. After all, how could we save them otherwise?
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:31
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

I'm having difficulty with today's crossword

Göring, Goebbels and Himmler were all leading members of the ____ party.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:36
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I'm having difficulty with today's crossword

Göring, Goebbels and Himmler were all leading members of the ____ party.
Republican
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:37
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Indeed.

So what's hypocritical about kosher chocolate, exactly, and how does the purchase (or sale) of such chocolate affect you?
I think people should start honoring their religion by doing the useful stuff first. Be genuinely nice to other people. Give the price difference between normal chocolate and kosher one to WWF (The one with the cute animals, not the one with the dressed up men). Then it won't matter to your god whether or not the chocolate you eat is kosher.

It's like being forced to listen to the same joke over and over and over again. The whole religion thing is cute in the beginning but by now it's just plain annoying.

I didn't post in the chocolate thread by the way. Didn't even click it.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:40
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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It's like being forced to listen to the same joke over and over and over again. The whole religion thing is cute in the beginning but by now it's just plain annoying.
Interestingly enough, exactly the same can be said of proselytising atheism.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:43
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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It's not religious people. It's the damn hypocrites. And religion seems to be the main source of the hypocrisy I have to deal with.

How come thousands of Muslims protest against a few Mohammed cartoons but choose to remain silent when a bunch of idiots murder people in the name of their god?

Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Unless your neighbor worships a different god. Or is gay. God created gays for the sole purpose of hating them...

But whatever. F the ten commandments or whatever rules come with your religion. You can make up for your sinning by confession. Or... err... eating kosher chocolate. Easy as that

I'm a very tolerant and very curious person. I'm interested in how other people think. The privilege of being agnostic / atheist is that you can listen to everyone and live by certain values even if they may have originated in different religious believes without dealing with all the BS that comes with most religions.

My question, however, is to what extend am I obligated to tolerate intolerance?? Do I have to tolerate Christians that don't tolerate my gay
friends? Do I have to tolerate Muslims who don't tolerate strong women (I'm not saying all of them do, but it DOES happen!)??

If there is no time to discuss a matter thoroughly, I choose to generally mock religion instead of generally tolerating it.
I may add that I distinguish between faith and religion. Everyone shall believe whatever they want. But religion is f*ing bullocks. And therefore shall be mocked.
By choosing to unilaterally mock all religion, you yourself are intolerant. How then are you not the hypocrite that you describe, given that you claim you are tolerant?
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:43
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Give the price difference between normal chocolate and kosher one to WWF
The kosher chocolate is normal chocolate (Lindt Excellence, if I recall correctly).

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I didn't post in the chocolate thread by the way. Didn't even click it.
Ah.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:45
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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The privilege of being agnostic / atheist is that you can listen to everyone and live by certain values even if they may have originated in different religious believes without dealing with all the BS that comes with most religions.
It's not a privilege for atheists to listen to everyone. And it's good that way. It's considerateness, and should be practised by more people - irrespective of their religious or non-religious background.
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Old 13.09.2011, 14:48
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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