Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:00
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
If anyone would like to come to a mass with me, to get to know how religion has changed since the Middle Ages, drop me a line.
I hear that, in some places, they don't send children up chimneys any more either. O tempora o mores!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #122  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:06
Textoch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas, USA (formerly Vaud, CH)
Posts: 1,201
Groaned at 25 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,058 Times in 937 Posts
Textoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Does not eating pork make me a vegetarian?

I tolerate people who listen to house music, I tolerate people who chose to drive french cars (seriously, how can you buy a french car???) I tolerate people of different sexual orientation, I tolerate grumpy old people who condemn my entire generation wholesale, I tolerate people with different believes. My best friend has very strong faith and it doesn't pose a problem to our friendship.
But I can't tolerate religion as an institution that tells its followers to not tolerate people of other believes or sexual orientation or whatever.
My intolerance is mainly focused on Christianity and Islam, because I have to read about their BS all the time.
Again, I distinguish between faith and religion. Very different thing.
I do now understand what you are saying. I guess I would call what you describe an intolerance for the actual ideals, values, and notions you find offensive rather than an intolerance for religion as a whole, whereas you define it more as the difference between "faith" and "religion."

As a religious person, I too am offended by the intolerances you describe, and I would never want anyone to automatically think I espoused those beliefs strictly based upon my religion just because some members of my religion do.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Textoch for this useful post:
  #123  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:11
Sagitta's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 706
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 1,174 Times in 489 Posts
Sagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond reputeSagitta has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
When I see this kind of tirade, I have to ask:

Have you ever went to a Catholic mass?

A lot of people with these tirades will answer with "no, but I am not interested because the catholic church is to be blamed for millions of deaths through out history".

I'd like to invite you to come with me to the church. In fact, I'd like to have a time machine to take you back to the mass I had in Leipzig, Germany, during the New Year, which was the last I attended to (basically because of the language barrier here in Switzerland). A Catholic mass celebrated on a Protestant church. After the regular automatic preying, comes the word of the priest which can be resumed to this:

The priest asked us to join him in spreading the peace and the love for your neighbour. To think about the people, both Christian and Muslims, that died in an attack in Egypt. To be proud of the Muslim brothers that formed a protection cord to let the Coptic Christians attend their mass. To spread the love and peace and think about the Buddist monks being surpressed in Tibet. Because we should help those in need, even if they believe in another God, because being a Christian is loving the person next to you.

I will repeat: this was a catholic mass, celebrated on a Lutheran church which, a couple of hundred years ago, decided the catholics were dangerous heretics. The Lutherans were celebrating on a catholic church for the same reason: to show we are not different to each other, and religious intolerance is wrong. It's a small step, but a step.


People who keep spanking the religion horse because everyone who is from a certain religion are as intolerant and narrow minded as religious radicals. To a lot of religious people, those that don't show up on TV because they are not ACTION NEWS enough, believe in religion as a sharing of love, peace, understanding, tolerance, help. Exactly the oposite that a lot believe to be religion.

If anyone would like to come to a mass with me, to get to know how religion has changed since the Middle Ages, drop me a line.
It’s nice to read about such examples and I could provide you with similar uplifting ones, coming from a very Catholic country (Poland). Unfortunately, I could also quote numerous examples of blatant intolerance and bigotry on the part of Catholics, but this is not the point.
This thread receives so much response because it touches everybody so deeply. There is a deep schism in the society, an ongoing conflict which seems to be unavoidable, and very destructive at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:12
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
When I see this kind of tirade, I have to ask:

Have you ever went to a Catholic mass?

A lot of people with these tirades will answer with "no, but I am not interested because the catholic church is to be blamed for millions of deaths through out history".
Was trying to stay out of this discussion but I'll have to bite on this one with one example that is still going on and really gets up my nose.

How many people are dying in Africa now because their catholic church tries to deny the use of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS? Something they are still in denial about. Here catholic dogma is still causing deaths.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:20
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
Was trying to stay out of this discussion but I'll have to bite on this one with one example that is still going on and really gets up my nose.

How many people are dying in Africa now because their catholic church tries to deny the use of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS? Something they are still in denial about. Here catholic dogma is still causing deaths.
Not to mention it's criminal cover up of sex abuse within it's ranks. A collective tolerance of beliefs in the supernatural and a cowed acceptance that churches and other religious institutions are somehow better than any other mortal institutions.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:24
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Ouchboy for this useful post:
  #127  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:25
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 104
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 253 Times in 70 Posts
manny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Have you ever went to a Catholic mass?
Yes I have been to Catholic and also other masses. Plenty of times.
And this even though the Catholic priest in my town always greeted all my friends, but not me, probably because my parents had chosen to not baptize me.
I'm on first name basis with the Protestant priest.

When I was in the States, I was part of youth groups and went to different churches because it was part of the culture I was there to explore and respect.

I have also taken part in aid projects sponsored by churches.

I also go to http://streetchurch.ch every now and then. I respect those people for what they do, giving young people some perspective. I could do without the "you have to sit through life because in afterlife everything will be better" part, but the supporting each other is one of those values I appreciate and therefore choose to put up with the stuff I don't like in order to be part of a good thing.

Funny thing is that most religious people I talk to agree with a lot of my opinions about religion. They choose to "ignore" those bad aspects and still be part of that religion. I choose to ignore religion and be part of what people make of it ignoring the bad aspects...
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Posts: 1,640
Groaned at 26 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 2,932 Times in 1,202 Posts
Russkov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
Was trying to stay out of this discussion but I'll have to bite on this one with one example that is still going on and really gets up my nose.

How many people are dying in Africa now because their catholic church tries to deny the use of condoms in preventing the spread of AIDS? Something they are still in denial about. Here catholic dogma is still causing deaths.
"But that's just one example!"
Quote:
Not to mention it's criminal cover up of sex abuse within it's ranks. A collective tolerance of beliefs in the supernatural and a cowed acceptance that churches and other religious institutions are somehow better than any other mortal institutions.
"OK, two!"

But that just shows how engrained into one's psychological and social identity religion can be. You can bring up to solid examples like this and people will just rationalize it away. "Oh, there are bad people everywhere." It literally becomes part of who people are, you can't just leave.

However it just doesn't make any sense if you're on the outside looking in. I mean, if I was in an organisation that tried to use its (huge) influence to exacerbate the spread of AIDS and cover up child rape, I'd seriously think about, I dunno, leaving that organisation. If Coop did something similar, the next day we'd all be shopping at Migros and getting our booze at Denner.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Russkov for this useful post:
  #129  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:36
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 104
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 253 Times in 70 Posts
manny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond reputemanny calavera has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
As a religious person, I too am offended by the intolerances you describe, and I would never want anyone to automatically think I espoused those beliefs strictly based upon my religion just because some members of my religion do.
With being member of a religion that over all still stands for those unacceptable values, you kind of give me the feeling that you are ok with it. That's what bothers me. Because as long as so many people passively accept what the institution is doing in their name, nothing will change.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:42
Pants-Face's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Dietikon, ZH
Posts: 217
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 344 Times in 130 Posts
Pants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputation
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
If the beliefs are that stupid, pointing the obvious out just makes you a party to that stupidity. And sound a bit sneery and intolerant. People are daft. Live with it.


Hmm, I definitely disagree there- if their daftness is loud and threatening, then I cannot tolerate it. Stupidity is not an excuse for anything...


However, if their daftness is quiet and does not try to meddle into educational, political, business etc institutions, that's not a problem.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pants-Face for this useful post:
  #131  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:44
mimi1981's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: London, previously Basel
Posts: 3,773
Groaned at 21 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 5,792 Times in 2,173 Posts
mimi1981 has a reputation beyond reputemimi1981 has a reputation beyond reputemimi1981 has a reputation beyond reputemimi1981 has a reputation beyond reputemimi1981 has a reputation beyond reputemimi1981 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank mimi1981 for this useful post:
  #132  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:44
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Of course, religion is also Big Business; and let's face it, wherever Big
Business goes, ethics, morality and decency tend to be early victims.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 13.09.2011, 15:53
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 15,039
Groaned at 307 Times in 263 Posts
Thanked 23,218 Times in 9,426 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Hmm, I definitely disagree there- if their daftness is loud and threatening, then I cannot tolerate it. Stupidity is not an excuse for anything...


However, if their daftness is quiet and does not try to meddle into educational, political, business etc institutions, that's not a problem.
Yes. Militant atheists should mind their own business and stop interfering. How dare they try to get their mindset being taught as fact in schools.

There's a huge difference between sharing religious or political beliefs and ramming them down people's throats. "Where can I get Kosher Chocolate" is hardly loud and threatening. Which is where this thread started.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #134  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:04
Pants-Face's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Dietikon, ZH
Posts: 217
Groaned at 10 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 344 Times in 130 Posts
Pants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputationPants-Face has an excellent reputation
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Yes. Militant atheists should mind their own business and stop interfering. How dare they try to get their mindset being taught as fact in schools.

There's a huge difference between sharing religious or political beliefs and ramming them down people's throats. "Where can I get Kosher Chocolate" is hardly loud and threatening. Which is where this thread started.


I don't understand the ''militant atheist'' reference...

Are you talking about evolution as opposed to ''intelligent design'' being taught as fact in schools ?


Yes, it's true- asking for kosher chocolate was a very innocent post. I was just trying to explain why some people may be so exasperated with religion, and are therefore more likely to react very negatively to a ''religious'' thread.

Last edited by Pants-Face; 13.09.2011 at 16:14. Reason: mis-read a sentence
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:05
Swissoconnors's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nidwalden
Posts: 185
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 147 Times in 72 Posts
Swissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputationSwissoconnors has an excellent reputation
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
With being member of a religion that over all still stands for those unacceptable values, you kind of give me the feeling that you are ok with it. That's what bothers me. Because as long as so many people passively accept what the institution is doing in their name, nothing will change.
How is the institution supposed to change if everyone leaves it though? And who said anything about "passive acceptance"? William Wilberforce and the many people who worked with him got slavery abolished in the UK not by leaving the country, not by abandoning the Houses of Parliament in disgust, but by staying in and carrying on fighting and campaigning. As you've probably noticed, it's hard to change any religion/government from outside it... they kind of have a tendency to ignore what unbelievers/non-voters say.

In any case, we're probably all guilty of staying in places where we disagree with stuff, even where we're unlikely to make much difference. I still live in central Switzerland despite my views on such things as the SVP, women being entitled to not come home from work at lunchtime, racism, smoking in public places (or indeed anywhere), accepting Nazi gold,... and so does the author of every complaints thread on this forum.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Swissoconnors for this useful post:
  #136  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:05
cyrus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Emmenbruecke
Posts: 2,904
Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 3,471 Times in 1,513 Posts
cyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond reputecyrus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
Yes. Militant atheists should mind their own business and stop interfering. How dare they try to get their mindset being taught as fact in schools.
Indeed how dare they!! Wait, what? What atheist mindset are atheists trying to get taught in schools?

Probably you mean science, but there's no real use for that, we can't ultimately prove anything, so we might as well just believe anything. Science, maths, biology, physics, chemistry, all basically useless, better off telling stories all day.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank cyrus for this useful post:
  #137  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:06
Textoch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas, USA (formerly Vaud, CH)
Posts: 1,201
Groaned at 25 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 3,058 Times in 937 Posts
Textoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond reputeTextoch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
With being member of a religion that over all still stands for those unacceptable values, you kind of give me the feeling that you are ok with it. That's what bothers me. Because as long as so many people passively accept what the institution is doing in their name, nothing will change.
I don't believe I have given any indication of what religion I am. I indicated my agreement with you that the intolerance of gays and sexism that is typically associated with certain religions is unacceptable. How might you be "getting the feeling" that I am "ok with it" given my comments in this thread?

If your conclusion is such about me given so little information, it is a waste of time to continue any debate. Your "feelings" are going to trump any counterpoint offered.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Textoch for this useful post:
  #138  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:07
Ouchboy's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Baden
Posts: 3,345
Groaned at 67 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 5,739 Times in 2,182 Posts
Ouchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond reputeOuchboy has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

A good mod would be warning people... A great one would be culling this to:
religious musings

...just sayin...
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:09
Castro's Avatar
ŕ la mod
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ZG
Posts: 5,729
Groaned at 126 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 17,260 Times in 5,479 Posts
Castro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond reputeCastro has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
I'm having difficulty with today's crossword

Göring, Goebbels and Himmler were all leading members of the ____ party.
Quote:
View Post
It doesn't fit, it has to be 4 letters across Anyway I'll go with Tory for now.
Quote:
View Post
NAZI!!!.. thats it
It took the N in Rastafarian and the Z in Zebra, but I got it in the end.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Castro for this useful post:
  #140  
Old 13.09.2011, 16:13
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy Wellies
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 8,729
Groaned at 53 Times in 47 Posts
Thanked 9,942 Times in 3,654 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Quote:
View Post
NAZI!!!.. thats it
It took the N in Rastafarian and the Z in Zebra, but I got it in the end.
Sorry, it should have been ZEBUS : I hear Swiss transport has cows with the hump (5)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
capitalism, commerce, fundamentalism, illiberalism, righteous wrath




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is religion the cause of all evil? Lob General off-topic 75 12.12.2011 21:18
Ok who is the idiot now, the scammer or the person who actually falls for it? gata General off-topic 3 11.07.2011 22:27
The British-Swiss Chamber of Commerce 'Stammtisch' FionaR Commercial events 0 02.02.2011 17:49
The British-Swiss Chamber of Commerce 'Stammtisch' FionaR Commercial events 1 12.01.2011 14:09
Religion: The Out-Takes (Director's Cut) ... or, Yay! Another religion thread! Nil General off-topic 95 15.11.2010 21:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0