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Old 13.09.2011, 17:35
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

God/religion both complete waste of time as demonstrated by the length of this thread
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  #142  
Old 13.09.2011, 17:43
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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God/religion both complete waste of time as demonstrated by the length of this thread
I'd conclude the opposite: a hot debatable topic.
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  #143  
Old 13.09.2011, 18:23
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Yes. Militant atheists should mind their own business and stop interfering. How dare they try to get their mindset being taught as fact in schools.
I was until now
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  #144  
Old 13.09.2011, 18:26
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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    God/religion both complete waste of time as demonstrated by the length of this thread
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    I'd conclude the opposite: a hot debatable topic.
  • Err, that's it.
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  #145  
Old 13.09.2011, 19:31
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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So if an EF member put this ad in the marketplace, I assume only serious replies would be posted:

"Wanted, 17 year old prositiute for a few nights in Zurich"

Just because something is legal here, offering it, taxing it, etc. it still could be mighty offensive to a high percent of the EF community and presumably would attract a boatload of unwanted comments.

I think posters, especially ones around for any number of years, should be aware that this is a public forum, based on experiences in CH, and the various multicultural, reglious backgrounds that people come from. As such, posting something that could offend or be seen as being on the extremeties of life in CH as we know it will solicit comments and responses accordingly.
Thank you Runningdeer and Baboon for your opinion, which I respect, although I might not fully agree with. I said somewhere else (the thread about avatars, I think) that, when posting on a public forum, it is always a good idea to apply some common sense. I, for one, try my best not to be offensive while at the same time feel free to voice my opinion. The key point is, my opinion WHEN REQUESTED.

Going with your example - if someone posts the question about the 17-year old prostitute, assuming as a necessary condition that this is perfectly legal, then the fact that I find it morally acceptable or not has no bearing in that particular thread. Either I have the information and I share it, or I don't,or if I find it disgusting and disagree completely, I refrain from posting in that thread and ignore it (again, under the assumption that it is legal). There are other venues to voice disagreement, but what I object to is the fact that some people feel the constant urge of providing unsolicited advice.

I see that all the time, and I could give you numerous examples: when someone asks about a particular legislation regarding homosexual couples, or abortion, or religion (or kosher chocolate, or the flying spaghetti monster) there is always the one person who feels the urge to say that something is morally wrong, unacceptable, should be banned, absurd, etc. Perfect, free to have your own opinion, but I am not interested IN THIS THREAD WHERE I AM ASKING FOR INFORMATION!!!

I stand by what I said before regarding my "ultra-libertarian" statement, as Baboon put it: as long as it is legal, there is a market for it, and there are clear regulations democratically established in a rule-of-law type of environment, I think that access to it (whatever "it" is - let's say kosher chocolate for the sake of argument) should be granted and protected. If I find kosher chocolate wrong, disagree, etc. nobody is forcing me at gun point to eat it. Others might find it agreeable.
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  #146  
Old 13.09.2011, 20:37
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I see that all the time, and I could give you numerous examples: when someone asks about a particular legislation regarding homosexual couples, or abortion, or religion (or kosher chocolate, or the flying spaghetti monster) there is always the one person who feels the urge to say that something is morally wrong, unacceptable, should be banned, absurd, etc. Perfect, free to have your own opinion, but I am not interested IN THIS THREAD WHERE I AM ASKING FOR INFORMATION!!!
Thank you. Exactly.
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Old 13.09.2011, 21:16
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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And therein lies the answer I think. I believe most people cannot draw the line between the two examples you gave. It is indeed a continuum, and different people will draw the line in different places.

What grown up individuals believe in, as long as it does not hurt others- is fine by me- whether in a religious context or not. For me DB, unlike you it seems (do correct me if I am wrong) - I do believe children should not be endoctrinated to the point of becoming intolerant of others (as in Glascow or NI just as an example- or say in some part of Africa, where some children are maimed and burnt as being incarnation of the Devil- there are 10000s of example). Nor should they be physically damaged or socially isolated by their religion. As runningdeer said so well, that fine line will be in a different place for most of us.

So many in my family both here and in SA have suffered terribly for being of the wrong religion (my dad was a CAtholic and my mum a divorced protestant- they were put through hell by their families- same for my mixed Muslim/Anglican/Presbitarian in Apartheid torn South Africa). But the bullying and intolerance of non-religious children growing up in traditional religious societies is great too. My 5 year old daughter had nightmares for years after being told by the Vicar at the village Church that she didn't belong to the Family of God and could go to Heaven if she died. (at least he didn't actually tell her she would go to hell - but she is a clever clog and worked that out for herself. He told her, aged 5, that he couldn't believe we, her parents, would be so selfish as to condemn her to that. A very minor example - there are of course 1000s much more worrying than this. And of course now in the UK religious schools of every description are being opened - further splitting sections of society. You are right DB, how can one can angry about kosher chocolate or Muslim Hostels, etc. It's daft. But NOT getting angry at some things done in the name of religion/s (or in the name of anything else) especially to children (say female circumcision or burning young 'heretics') - is to my mind, very misplaced 'tolerance'.

It would also be nice if those who are religious would respect that some of us are not, and still have a very strong moral code. Why anybody needs some God to tell them that murdering others is not appropriate, or that what goes round comes around, etc, I'll never know.

Last edited by Odile; 13.09.2011 at 22:01.
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  #148  
Old 13.09.2011, 23:09
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

There are religious belief systems that aren't about adherence to a moral code and do not subscribe to, nor promote the idea that if you're good you'll go to heaven and if you're bad you'll go to hell, as though good behaviour could in anyway please god.

Just thought I'd mention it.
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  #149  
Old 13.09.2011, 23:10
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

Bhuddists do have a good point.
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  #150  
Old 13.09.2011, 23:40
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

There are many good books that give guidance and inspiration, some religious, some not. In most, there is quite a bit of sifting and choosing to do. One very simple and yet truly inspiring is the Ta0-te-Ching - I dip into it most days.
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Old 14.09.2011, 01:19
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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There are many good books that give guidance and inspiration, some religious, some not. In most, there is quite a bit of sifting and choosing to do. One very simple and yet truly inspiring is the Ta0-te-Ching - I dip into it most days.
Oh, how I adore this book.

Found two quotes, which seem appropriate for the discussion:

"Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise."

"One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him."
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  #152  
Old 14.09.2011, 01:25
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I am not asking you what you think about the issue, because frankly, I am not interested in your opinion!!! Just give the darn information, otherwise get off my thread (or get on a thread that asks for your opinion on the issue).
Hmmm....this is a tough one. While, a thread starter might feel entitled to regulate where the thread is going and tell off posters who don't fit the wished profile, due to huge number of readers (eventhough only miniscule number will actually pitch in) you always risk having opinions of people. I think, why not. If it is worded in a decent way and does not in any way threaten, attack or mock OP. And that happens, unfortunately, often. Hence the reactions to smoking, public nursing of kosher choc (where, I need, hahah, life is throwing interesting turns...). So, while I think why not tolerate opinions, even in practical threads, if they are worded inoffensively and politely and abstain from high horse. Mind you, culturally, high horse is hard to tell, too.

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I'm just curious as to what it is about kosher chocolate, islam-friendly hotels and sabbath-observing prayer groups that arouses people's ire so.

Do religious people offend you that much?
No. I am just seeing a friend off, who I care about a lot, who is going on an ecumenical peace talk mission into a place that is very unsafe these days. I wish she would let me use her pic as avatar, not only coz she is hot but also my hero.

Religious people offend I think those who consider faith/church following a sign of weakness. In these times of political correctness when nobody can say what they think, extreme individualism is probably an answer to pretence and hypocracy and all this pc stuffs. Extremely individualistic people will sniff out pressure even if it is only people having different opinions. I am not sure why we are asked to constantly agree with one another. As opposed to politely disagree and enjoy the exchange. So what that somebody needs kosher chocolate and somebody else wants to sell her kittens. But in my opinion, people who are wise and sure about insecurities and normal faults, won't fall apart if somebody dares to question their religion or why they want to sell their kittens. I had great religious edu after revolution, I hope it is done here too. Dif churches, dominations, etc. I think, these days it is necessity to soak up all the important stuff our civilization is about so we can hold a decent talk. Not bash, just out of principle or out of myopic or fashionable cerebral shortcuts.

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I tolerate people who chose to drive french cars (seriously, how can you buy a french car???)
This made me laugh...So, you don't actually tolerate French cars. And also seem quite opinionated about other things you seem to say you tolerate, too. It's ok. Debate is good, as one works the labeling and stereotyping on a conscious level. It's ok to actually say, no I don't tolerate some stuff. Like French drivers or cars.

So...kosher chocolate. I will have to look into it.
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  #153  
Old 14.09.2011, 01:49
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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  #154  
Old 14.09.2011, 10:47
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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There are religious belief systems that aren't about adherence to a moral code and do not subscribe to, nor promote the idea that if you're good you'll go to heaven and if you're bad you'll go to hell, as though good behaviour could in anyway please god.

Just thought I'd mention it.
See, I'm often told this by people who come across as very nuanced in terms of their morality, so I'm left to assume that they're deist or simply spiritual. Then I ask what they adhere to and of course I get: "Christian." Heaven and hell is a major tenent of Christianity, though. As are plenty of other rules in the Holy Book that followers these days choose to ignore. Then I'm told that they only believe in the Zombie Jesus/died for your sins/love thy neighbour part, and stuff like heaven and hell is metaphor which could mean many things. Well, if that part could mean anything, all of it could mean anything, so why bother with it at all. It's the equivalent of liking a few of Confiscius's quotes and calling yourself his disclipe as a result. Or being a Fascist because Mussollini's idea of making trains run on time was a swell one.

I don't mean to have the pretention to tell Christians what they should be, but it seems to me most of them don't know themselves and just stick around for the community aspect. Which I admit is pretty convenient, you can move to a new place and go to the local church and be welcomed with open arms as a fellow "Christian". Oh, you agree with only half of what the preacher says and find some of it outdated and morally reprehensible? Shut up, brain, we're new in town and have to make friends. After all, I'm still a Christian! I think...
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  #155  
Old 14.09.2011, 10:56
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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I wish she would let me use her pic as avatar, not only coz she is hot but also my hero.
You can send it to me by PM. I like pictures of ho heros.
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  #156  
Old 14.09.2011, 11:02
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Oh, how I adore this book.

Found two quotes, which seem appropriate for the discussion:

"Wise men don't need to prove their point;
men who need to prove their point aren't wise."

"One who is too insistent on his own views, finds few to agree with him."
Unfortunately quotes found in books don't always match real life. I know plenty of dense people who use similar quotes to justify their stubborn ignorance. They never prove their point and automatically assume that they are wise
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Old 14.09.2011, 11:03
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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Unfortunately quotes found in books don't always match real life. I know plenty of dense people who use similar quotes to justify their stubborn ignorance. They don't prove their point and automatically assume that they must be wise
you lost me, Sagitta said that people who insist on proving their points are believed to be 'not wise' so you are just agreeing with her then?
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Old 14.09.2011, 11:04
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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there were no poptarts in Jesus' time...
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Old 14.09.2011, 11:12
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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you lost me, Sagitta said that people who insist on proving their points are believed to be 'not wise' so you are just agreeing with her then?
If only I had said it: no, it was just a quote of someone much, much, much wiser.
Anyway, I like what MusicChick wrote about disagreeing politely and enjoying the exchange. There is a lot of that happening on the EF: a cultured debate. This is what makes this forum a great place: the wisdom of some of its members.
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Old 14.09.2011, 11:13
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Re: Religion, commerce and the ire of the illiberal idiot.

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