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  #41  
Old 01.10.2011, 11:49
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Re: greek bashing

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(The massive difference between Nazi Germany and Greece is that Germany obvioulsly committed unspeakable crimes, including in Greece, while modern Greece was only, as a state and on an insitutional level, corrupt and rotten. But I stand by my analogy.)
you just explained why your analogy is patronizing.
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Old 01.10.2011, 11:49
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Re: greek bashing

OK - got it, sounds to me like you just needed to vent early morning - maybe grabbing somebody for a big hug today will help
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  #43  
Old 01.10.2011, 11:51
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Re: greek bashing

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OK - got it, sounds to me like you just needed to vent early morning - maybe grabbing somebody for a big hug today will help
i think i had started this thread on an evening. but yes, hugs are always welcome!
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  #44  
Old 01.10.2011, 13:10
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Re: greek bashing

Yes, Greece is corrupt! Yes, nothing works there properly! I acknowledge and condemn that! Living and working there made me sad, angry, desperate, depressive etc., just like everyone else my age, who, like me, have "invested" in their education and at the end of the day they see their qualifications being laughed at by unqualified people who made their money by deceiving the state. (Yes, it IS an investment, if you always have to go "private" to learn foreign languages or ensure your success in the final exams, because the public education system simply doesn't work!). So yes, I practically agree with those, who enjoy themselves making nasty comments about Greece and the Greeks just to see me react, but give me (us) a break! We have enough problems already, watching our dreams collapse and reconfiguring our lives!
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  #45  
Old 01.10.2011, 13:31
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Re: greek bashing

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Yes, Greece is corrupt! Yes, nothing works there properly! I acknowledge and condemn that! Living and working there made me sad, angry, desperate, depressive etc., just like everyone else my age, who, like me, have "invested" in their education and at the end of the day they see their qualifications being laughed at by unqualified people who made their money by deceiving the state. (Yes, it IS an investment, if you always have to go "private" to learn foreign languages or ensure your success in the final exams, because the public education system simply doesn't work!). So yes, I practically agree with those, who enjoy themselves making nasty comments about Greece and the Greeks just to see me react, but give me (us) a break! We have enough problems already, watching our dreams collapse and reconfiguring our lives!
Sounds worse than Turkey.
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  #46  
Old 01.10.2011, 14:17
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Re: greek bashing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...the-abyss.html
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  #47  
Old 01.10.2011, 14:43
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Re: greek bashing

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just go back and read my initial post....nowhere there (or on any of my other posts) i tried to say that greek goverments (and people) have been correct and the bashing is coming out of nowhere. i started this thread as i am getting tired of hearing "joke" about lazy greeks when my friends back in greece are currently working their asses off (and have done that since i know them) and are still unable to make ends meet (and worse of all, to hope about the future).
all i wanted is to rant for the insensitivity (is that a word?!) of people a) bashing greeks when i am there (as it feels like they are bashing me) and b) not showing any kind of respect for normal people and all they have to suffer but rather thinking that what is happening to them is fair. or thinking that they had everything easy so far. believe me it was difficult even 8 years ago when i first left greece.

i don't feel that i have to expalin myself any more, i am not a spokeperson for greeks, i just made a rant about something that hurts me lately, as i know first hand how difficult it is for people there and all the accusations for lazyness and having it easy on the back of good hard working europeans are simply unfair. that's all.
Dear Crimson,
You have all my sympathy for starting this thread. I, for one, know how it feels to hear and see people bashing your country and often having to justify yourself in front of some ignorant and malicious persons. Sharpen your nails and give them a reply re. their precious perfect country, that would shut their mouth up. This way, they learn. Trust me.
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  #48  
Old 01.10.2011, 14:51
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Re: greek bashing

I've actually found the Greeks quite cool about taking jokes concerning their country. The people in your work context do sound like they're overdoing it, though.

It's like if people tell me that Russian men are a bunch of drunks. We are, I can't argue. I wouldn't want to hear about it constantly though.

If ever you go too far with Greeks, just say something about the Turks. That'll get them on your side rather quickly.

(Before the PC police swoops in, no problem with people from Turkey. Rivalries between countries are something you can always count on. Ditto for Sweden/Finland.)
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  #49  
Old 01.10.2011, 15:33
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Re: greek bashing

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I've actually found the Greeks quite cool about taking jokes concerning their country. The people in your work context do sound like they're overdoing it, though.

It's like if people tell me that Russian men are a bunch of drunks. We are, I can't argue. I wouldn't want to hear about it constantly though.

If ever you go too far with Greeks, just say something about the Turks. That'll get them on your side rather quickly.

(Before the PC police swoops in, no problem with people from Turkey. Rivalries between countries are something you can always count on. Ditto for Sweden/Finland.)
True and funny..I guess. I'm all for sports and fun, no problem, but as you said sometimes enough it's enough. It is so much easier when you come from a big country than when you come from a small country people know practically nothing about it, and largely rely on mass media and assessments done by journalists. (generally speaking)
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Old 01.10.2011, 16:03
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What is the Great Greek suffering? It's a joke people are suffering there, right? No longer earning Germany level wages? Too bad. I'm telling you - go to Poland, Slovakia or a Baltic republic, work your arse off for $300 nett a month, with food prices close to Germany, and they I can believe someone knows the meaning of the words "struggling" or "suffering".
I know what a corrupt state is like, but assuming other countries have to subsidy it forever will take some time within EU to, hm, come to terms with. But there will be a transfer union, or te EU will break up. The thing is Greece is asking for more than its "fair" share. Way too much.
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  #51  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:00
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Re: greek bashing

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I'm telling you - go to Poland, Slovakia or a Baltic republic, work your arse off for $300 nett a month, with food prices close to Germany, and they I can believe someone knows the meaning of the words "struggling" or "suffering".
I know what a corrupt state is like, but assuming other countries have to subsidy it forever will take some time within EU to, hm, come to terms with. But there will be a transfer union, or te EU will break up. The thing is Greece is asking for more than its "fair" share. Way too much.
Yeap..I come from such a country...And guess what: we are not too good for joining Schengen (we are too corrupt), but will be certainly good to pay off some debts of E.U. members
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  #52  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:15
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Re: greek bashing

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What is the Great Greek suffering? It's a joke people are suffering there, right? No longer earning Germany level wages? Too bad. .
germany level wages?! i don't believe that the wage for a german university graduate is 700-800 euros.... this is why i hate how the media are covering the crisis, making all the greeks look as if they are having huge salaries when that is really not the case at all. it's sad and frustrating.

i am well aware that other countries are in a worse situation like greece. but let me tell you that there ARE people struggling and suffering there and i know that first hand as that includes people i know. how do you know that they are not struggling?
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  #53  
Old 01.10.2011, 17:40
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Re: greek bashing

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i guess i would have the same complaint if i lived anywhere else, but here it goes.

i'm really tired of people's comments about greece and greeks (and more IRL rather than here). and that coming from me that don't usually care so much about nationalities and i'm not one of those thinking that greece/greeks are perfect. on the contrary.

however, once and for all, not everyone in greece is lazy, takes long holidays or early pention or doesn't pay their taxes. i'm sorry, but it is insulting to hear things like that from work colleagues etc (even if they are passes as a joke). i am the first one to make fun of greeks and some of their stereotypical traits but after the 10,000 time , i^m sorry but it is not funny anymore.

fellow colleague, did you ever wondered: if greece was such a paradise (get paid even if you don't work, don't pay taxes etc) why on earth would i leave? did you ever wonder that when you refer to greeks in general as "lazy" or "tax evaders" that includes me?

what really upsets me is that people are being so judgemental and not try to see the human side of the story. we are talking about people here, people like you and me who are suffering more and more each day and struggling to make ends meet. people who cannot make plans about the future. it hurts me so much to hear all the bashing here and then to have friends and family on the phone who are struggling to have what many of us take for granted, ie a job and some sort of security for the future. it breaks my heart that people believe that anyone deserves that.

surely there are greeks who have been tax-evading or not working as hard as they were getting paid for but let me tell you this is not the majority (and certainly they are not getting "punished" the way average greeks are being punished at the moment). but try to put yourself in the shoes of the average greek, who has been working hard (really), has been ok with his paymenets to the state, has believed the politicians saying that the country was doing well, only to find themselves struggling more and more.
we shouldn't judge from the comfort of our nice life here, as we never know how things might turn. i challenge any of you to try to spend one month in greece with 700 euros (ie normal salary).

it is not pity that i am asking for (in respect to that, i am very greek. i hate pity - seriously people are asking me if my paretns have enough to survive?!). i am asking you to keep in mind that there are people involved in this story, people no better or no worse than in other countries, people no better or no worse than you and me.

sorry for the incoherent post but just had to let it out.
Last summer I refused to listen to any US news channel because of all the constants rants about Greece.

Greece hosted the Olympics safely, did they get praise for it, well not that I noticed
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  #54  
Old 01.10.2011, 18:39
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Re: greek bashing

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germany level wages?!
Minimum salary in Germany:
between 7.5 and 13 depending on the industry and region. So, for the worst-off it is 1200,- pcm.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindestlohn#Deutschland

Greece:
751,-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ges_by_country

Poland:
350,- source as above


Relatively speaking, closer to where is Greece?

Same history here - median household income, adjusted for the purchasing power - it show how much dollars one would have in US Dollars with prices as in US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

Greece is still a well-off, 1st world country and has quite a way to fall down to become a 2nd world country. So, Greeks' whining is relative. It doesn't deserve to be bailed out for the sake of its citizens, but to keep it politically where it belongs to. See the latest Turkey-Israel-Greece-Cyprus developements.
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  #55  
Old 01.10.2011, 19:01
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Re: greek bashing

just to say that 751 is certainly NOT the minimum salary in greece, at least not in the private sector. (as a matter of fact i followed the link cited in the wikipedia. you have to take my word for it, as it is in greek but it refers to the public sector). but even so, it is still WAY below the german ones (and yes above the polish ones).

i never said that greece is better off than poland, it was you saying about germany level wages and it is not the case (as you just proved with your link). look, this is not a competition about who is worse off. i just find it funny that you seem to think that you can judge if people are really suffering or not, based on wikipedia articles

it feels as if someone who has no experience with poland would come to you and try to convince you that people are not struggling there. would you believe him, no matter how many links he would provide? no, because you know the situation first hand. not everyone in greece is struggling but the situation is getting worse and worse and more people are affected (especially pensioners and young ones). suicide rates have increased 40% in comparison to last year (i could find the link if you want). is that suffering enough for you?

and don't forget it is not only about the salary. unemployment rates are about 16% (yes that means 0 salary)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_872977.html
oh and a lot of unemployed people will no longer receive any benefits.

plus THOUSANDS of people made redundant without even getting compansation (as they call it "put in reserve")

as i said, no country has the monopoly of struggling and just because greece is better off than some countries (at the moment at least) doesn't make it easy for people there.
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  #56  
Old 01.10.2011, 19:32
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Re: greek bashing

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germany level wages?! i don't believe that the wage for a german university graduate is 700-800 euros.... this is why i hate how the media are covering the crisis, making all the greeks look as if they are having huge salaries when that is really not the case at all. it's sad and frustrating.

i am well aware that other countries are in a worse situation like greece. but let me tell you that there ARE people struggling and suffering there and i know that first hand as that includes people i know. how do you know that they are not struggling?
lets get real here for a second. Whose fault is this ultimately? Foreigners? Did foreigners come to Greece and make it this way?

Did Greeks agree to join the EU?

Did they agree to join the Euro?

Do they vote for politicians?

Do they run most of the businesses in Greece?

Greeks have their own nation, which they fought tooth and nail for. Take responsibility for it.

As far as people calling Greeks names??? So. I'm American living in Europe. Don't get me started on names and stereotyping...lets be real.

Don't get me started on black or Muslim stereotypes in Europe.


Also some folks in Europe still get called more names...GERMANS. Lets be honest, Germans aren't really liked in mass anywhere. Almost all the neighbors of Germany I have met (which is all of them) have a mild to hateful attitude toward them. Although they can't really articulate why. Most Germans don't cry at night over this.

I do understand that Greeks aren't "rich" and are not as "bad" as much of the media in Northern Europe promotes...but hey Americans are not as blood thirsty, greedy, or ignorant as almost all of European media promotes either. All blacks in Switzerland are not refugees living off a Swiss woman or the government...

Welcome to the club.

That being said, I would gladly vote for a pro-Greek female immigration policy into the U.s. (sorry men can't help you, but we will gladly take the ladies as long as they meet certain requirements...) I think I can get this passed through Congress in this political climate, it's just humanitarian (thinking of Ali G in Da House movie).
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Old 01.10.2011, 19:38
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Re: greek bashing

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lets get real here for a second. Whose fault is this ultimately? Foreigners? Did foreigners come to Greece and make it this way?

Did Greeks agree to join the EU?

Did they take massive loans from Western Euro banks?

Did they have to make retirement so early?

Did they have to have such a big % of their economy be the Public Sector (Government "make-work" jobs)?

Did they agree to join the Euro?

Do they vote for politicians?

Do they run most of the businesses in Greece?

Greeks have their own nation, which they fought tooth and nail for. Take responsibility for it.

As far as people calling Greeks names??? So. I'm American living in Europe. Don't get me started on names and stereotyping...lets be real.

Don't get me started on black or Muslim stereotypes in Europe.


Also some folks in Europe still get called more names...GERMANS. Lets be honest, Germans aren't really liked in mass anywhere. Almost all the neighbors of Germany I have met (which is all of them) have a mild to hateful attitude toward them. Although they can't really articulate why. Most Germans don't cry at night over this.

I do understand that Greeks aren't "rich" and are not as "bad" as much of the media in Northern Europe promotes...but hey Americans are not as blood thirsty, greedy, or ignorant as almost all of European media promotes either. All blacks in Switzerland are not refugees living off a Swiss woman or the government...

Welcome to the club.
woooh, someone is angry.

as i said i'm not a spokeperson for greece, nor do i feel i have to justify myself against angry people because i made a thread to rant in a forum.

read my posts, i never tried to take responsibility off greeks, on the contrary. just tried to make people see the human side of the problem and to offer a first hand knowledge about how peoples' lives are affected. but obviously some people are too angry for that. fair enough.

also, i am sorry you've been also stereotyped and called names. shouldn't happen to anyone.

seriously people, there is no need to get upset. i ranted about something that hurts me. i have had worse things happening in my life, so i'll be fine. didn't think that just a rant would create such reactions. (i really tried to phrase my "complain" as carefully as possible to avoid that. i either failed or people read things the way they want).
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Old 01.10.2011, 19:48
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Re: greek bashing

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woooh, someone is angry.

as i said i'm not a spokeperson for greece, nor do i feel i have to justify myself against angry people because i made a thread to rant in a forum.

read my posts, i never tried to take responsibility off greeks, on the contrary. just tried to make people see the human side of the problem and to offer a first hand knowledge about how peoples' lives are affected. but obviously some people are too angry for that. fair enough.

also, i am sorry you've been also stereotyped and called names. shouldn't happen to anyone.

seriously people, there is no need to get upset. i ranted about something that hurts me. i have had worse things happening in my life, so i'll be fine. didn't think that just a rant would create such reactions. (i really tried to phrase my "complain" as carefully as possible to avoid that. i either failed or people read things the way they want).

I think people will keep on reading things the way they want.
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Old 01.10.2011, 19:51
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Re: greek bashing

Hello everybody,
I am following this discussion since the beginning and I would like to say my opinion. As italian, Crimson, we are more or less in the same boat. And it is not just a problem of mediterranean countries but can be extended to a big part of the "western world". The thing is that we have been living far beyond our possibilities in the last decades and how our governments were feeding this "dream"? Borrowing money and use this money to enlarge the salaries in the public sector, give pensions at 50 years old and other thousands of nonseses in order just to receive votes back. As simple as that. We thought that was "normality": it was not. And it has arrived the moment to pay back that money. But here the differences come out: what has Greece to give back? Sun, nice seas and amazing landscapes? I think it is not enough. And that is where the problem is. Greece does not have such a big tradition of big industries capable of huge exports like, for example Germany, and in a certain amount Italy as well. But still this money must come out. And guess who is going to pay...
Who's to blame? Politicians and citizens both cause the firsts are just a mirror of the seconds.
Economy is not "human" and maybe it is a good thing.
Our generation will pay the mistakes of the past, it is not fair but we will manage it and we will learn from the mistakes in order to give our children a better world. (ok ok I was a bit to idealist and utopist in the last sentence... :P )
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Old 01.10.2011, 19:56
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Re: greek bashing

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woooh, someone is angry.

as i said i'm not a spokeperson for greece, nor do i feel i have to justify myself against angry people because i made a thread to rant in a forum.

read my posts, i never tried to take responsibility off greeks, on the contrary. just tried to make people see the human side of the problem and to offer a first hand knowledge about how peoples' lives are affected. but obviously some people are too angry for that. fair enough.

also, i am sorry you've been also stereotyped and called names. shouldn't happen to anyone.

seriously people, there is no need to get upset. i ranted about something that hurts me. i have had worse things happening in my life, so i'll be fine. didn't think that just a rant would create such reactions. (i really tried to phrase my "complain" as carefully as possible to avoid that. i either failed or people read things the way they want).

Anger? HOw did you get that? No one is angry. I think you are projecting? I don't care enough about Greek to angry over its self-made economic disaster. LOL What I'm saying is that stereotyping happens. Get over it. For the record I have had one person say anything negative about Greece over this crisis, they were Swiss. THey included Greece with a general "Mediterranean attitude" and just said "see, this is why Switzerland wants nothing to do with the EU..." compared to what I've heard Swiss say about Americans, Germans, etc. That's a joke. You are way too sensitive. Or maybe just not used to your ethnicity/nationality being in the spotlight.
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