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Old 11.11.2011, 17:37
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Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Hi All,
I have this strange problem.
We took our baby out of a local Kinder Krippe (Creche) after keeping her for two months.
There was no formal contract signed between us.
Only the initial requisition form was signed.

As per the process they were supposed to share a copy of contract with me mutually signed and agreed upon.
This never happened somehow and we also never demanded one.

Because we were communicated verbally that the notice period is 1 month we informed 1 month in advance and was shocked to hear that the notice period is 3 months and we will have to serve the same or we shall not receive our deposit of 1 month back.

I specifically asked for any written contract and they handed over a copy of the initial requisition form which had in small letters the details of this aforesaid agreement.
Personally I doubted the additional textual information with the contractual agreement terms and conditions and asked to have a look into the original signed document, which they mentioned that they have lost.

I do not remember how the copy of the initial requisition form looked like but the blank one available online now does not have any contracteual agreement details as expected.
Now we are repeatedly receiving bills for every month, which is completely unjustified.
I have announced ending my contract over email but they seem to write confusing replies without any fact in it.
I have tried to talk to the owners but they are very behaving rudely and are not ready to talk.
What can I do now?
I do not want to pay the rent for the krippe, which is a lot, even if my kid is not going and I have formally announced the departure.
And I want my deposit money back as this transaction seems very cryptic for me.
Should I go to the Police or local geminde for help?
Thanks for your suggestions in advance.

P:S:- There are hardly any kids registered to this krippe but when I requested for a place we were told we are the last one and we must send the deposit money ASAP but from the day we started we saw that my baby was the only toddler. I personally believe that this place has some bad reputation but because of my unflinching faith on Swiss system I was blind and ignored this unacceptable behaviour until now.
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  #2  
Old 11.11.2011, 17:52
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Hi,
.
I am really sorry that you are going into this.
I would personnally go (or at least threaten to go) to the Erziehungsdepartment. I heard that, at least Basel they check very regularly every Krippe and could close one even just for administrative issues. Regarding the deposit, I have never heard about anything similar. I visited several Krippe before finding the one my daughter has attended since 2009 and no one ever asked for one.
Good luck
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Old 11.11.2011, 17:58
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Thanks for the reply and understanding the situation.

Can you please let me know where this Erziehungsdepartment will be in Zurich?
I have my own issues with the language as I can not speak nor understand German upto the mark of proper communication..:-(
Cheers
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Old 12.11.2011, 21:16
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

I really need some advice on this ASAP as I need to act on this on Monday.
Thanks for your time to help me out.
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Old 12.11.2011, 21:24
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Do you think the one month notice period might have related to the initial month your child was in the Krippe? A kind of "trial period" notice period.

It's unusual to find a daycare in Zurich with less than 2 or 3 months notice. I'm just saying because, seeing as no-one can seem to find the relevant forms or contract and it's one word against the other, it's unlikely you will be able to get a happy outcome.

You might be best just sucking it up, going with the three months notice and chalking it up to experience. Next time you register with a daycare, badger the management until you get all the paperwork in order.
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Old 12.11.2011, 21:45
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Thanks for your reply.
But following are the facts:-
1. We do not have any written contract.
2. Assuming the fact that there is a contract with 3 months notice period and I have broken the contract without serving the said period. I have also paid the rent for all the relevant months my child was with the day care. Then the deposit money will be confiscated by the day care but why are they sending bills for additional months?
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Old 12.11.2011, 21:51
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Just Googled it for you....

It seems that Kinderkrippe are administered by the social dept. Contact details below...perhaps give them a call or get a German speaking friend to call them for you if nobody there speaks any English.

http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/content/...t/kontakt.html

Cheers,
Nick

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I really need some advice on this ASAP as I need to act on this on Monday.
Thanks for your time to help me out.
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Old 12.11.2011, 21:57
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Thanks I will surely do accordingly.
Wish me luck mate.
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Old 12.11.2011, 22:08
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Also, in Switzerland it is usual that you send any type of resignation/cancelation by registered post so that it the proof. Usually email is not the formal way to cancel.
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Old 13.11.2011, 19:43
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

Thanks for your replies.
Actually i got a reply back from the owner where the cancellation was acknowledged by the owner.
BTB:- Already discussed with our office lawyer that in the current scenario the Krippe has violated many laws and I will be filing a lawsuit against the krippe an d they are already fighting some other lawsuits due to their shady way of business. They are expected to be heavily penalized.
Registered posts does not prove anything in law.This has been proved.
I can send a registered post and the recipient may also receive the letter but there is no proof of the content of the letter. The receiver can well say that the letter is an empty page and I have no way of proving as what has been sent unless the sending object is sent under the surveillance of a civil officer who will approve on the content.
So beware of thinking registered posts as a legal instrument.
I will get those ********...
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:01
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

This is a contractual issue between you and your contractual partner, in this case the Krippe, and has nothing to do with the social services. They are responsible for ensuring that the institutions follow the regulations set up by the authorities, nothing else.

A contract doesnt have to be in writing to be binding. By bringing your child to the Krippe and paying for the services you have, de facto instituted a contract with them. The only issue as I see it is whether or not you can be assumed having knowledge about the 3 months notice period. Which by the way is the norm in all similar institutions in Zurich. If you were informed about the 3 month notice period at some point, either oraly or via the Krippenreglement e.g., by bringing the child and paying the monthy fee, you are assumed to have accepted the conditions.

Turn it around, lets say the Krippe came one day and told you, you had to take your child out immediatelly because they wanted the spot for another child, had you accepted it? Didn't think so.
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:11
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

In Zurich the norm is one month deposit and 3 month notice period. This thread should make it pretty obvious why that practice is required.

The social authorities are not responsible for the contractual agreement between the parents and the institution and I can assure you that no Krippe would lose their permit due to a contractual dispute.


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Hi,
.
I am really sorry that you are going into this.
I would personnally go (or at least threaten to go) to the Erziehungsdepartment. I heard that, at least Basel they check very regularly every Krippe and could close one even just for administrative issues. Regarding the deposit, I have never heard about anything similar. I visited several Krippe before finding the one my daughter has attended since 2009 and no one ever asked for one.
Good luck
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:34
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

But still how does this answer my second question??

Assuming the fact that there is a contract with 3 months notice period and I have broken the contract without serving the said period. I have also paid the rent for all the relevant months my child was with the day care. Then the deposit money will be confiscated by the day care but why are they sending bills for additional months?
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:38
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

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Registered posts does not prove anything in law.This has been proved.
I can send a registered post and the recipient may also receive the letter but there is no proof of the content of the letter. The receiver can well say that the letter is an empty page and I have no way of proving as what has been sent unless the sending object is sent under the surveillance of a civil officer who will approve on the content.
So beware of thinking registered posts as a legal instrument.
I will get those ********...
Registered mail is much more reliable and accepted than an email. It is also the normal way that things are done in CH.

Only a very shady organization is going to say "I only received a blank paper". But most normal & not shady organizations do things this way. But you do what you feel is best.

Do let us know how it goes with the law suit.
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:40
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

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But still how does this answer my second question??

Assuming the fact that there is a contract with 3 months notice period and I have broken the contract without serving the said period. I have also paid the rent for all the relevant months my child was with the day care. Then the deposit money will be confiscated by the day care but why are they sending bills for additional months?
If your email cancelation was accepted by the kripe then the should not be sending you bill for anything past 3 months from the time you canceled. Have you asked them why they are still billing you past that time? Perhaps it's just a mistake. When did you cancel?
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:48
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

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But still how does this answer my second question??

Assuming the fact that there is a contract with 3 months notice period and I have broken the contract without serving the said period. I have also paid the rent for all the relevant months my child was with the day care. Then the deposit money will be confiscated by the day care but why are they sending bills for additional months?
Did you hand in your notice more than three months ago from now? If not, sounds like they are still billing you for the full three months that your little one should have still been with them, deposit notwithstanding. So if your deposit money covers one month's worth of fees I guess they will bill you for the other missing month anyway... It doesn't seem very logical or very legal but I know nothing about the law here - what exactly is the deposit supposed to be for? (We don't have to put down a deposit in our canton) Is it just for breaching the contract in general, or for leaving within one year or something similar?

(Incidentally, for future reference, it's also worth checking the rules for holidays well before planning any. Our KK requires 2 months' - I think - notice of holidays, and even then you still pay half-price for the days you will be absent!)

I am sorry you're in this situation, I know it's frustrating. Chalk it up to experience and try not to let it get to you.

ETA: miniMia beat me to it!
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Old 13.11.2011, 20:51
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

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A contract doesnt have to be in writing to be binding. By bringing your child to the Krippe and paying for the services you have, de facto instituted a contract with them.
It is true that a contract doesn't have to be in writing, but
contracts in writing are "more enforceable" in a court of law.

I would see an attorney on this one. Do you have legal
insurance? Rechtschutzversicherung in German.
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Old 13.11.2011, 21:07
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

The deposit is in case the parents would all of a sudden deside they dont want to use the service any longer and "forgot" they have a contractual agreement of a notice period of three months. As is evident from this thread, not without reason.



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Did you hand in your notice more than three months ago from now? If not, sounds like they are still billing you for the full three months that your little one should have still been with them, deposit notwithstanding. So if your deposit money covers one month's worth of fees I guess they will bill you for the other missing month anyway... It doesn't seem very logical or very legal but I know nothing about the law here - what exactly is the deposit supposed to be for? (We don't have to put down a deposit in our canton) Is it just for breaching the contract in general, or for leaving within one year or something similar?

(Incidentally, for future reference, it's also worth checking the rules for holidays well before planning any. Our KK requires 2 months' - I think - notice of holidays, and even then you still pay half-price for the days you will be absent!)

I am sorry you're in this situation, I know it's frustrating. Chalk it up to experience and try not to let it get to you.

ETA: miniMia beat me to it!
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Old 19.12.2011, 17:24
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Re: Kinder Krippe Related Issues:-

May I ask you the name of this Krippe? You may answer PM if you don't like to name it publically.
I'm asking because there are currently some problems in our Krippe and noone knows what will be there from the next year...
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