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  #141  
Old 02.02.2012, 05:05
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

If employers are really just hoping to make sure they don't 'waste' training expenses, they should also try to weed out those with health problems or dangerous hobbies, or maybe who live in dangerous neighborhoods?
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  #142  
Old 02.02.2012, 08:50
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

i don't quite understands business selfish gripe with this topic - it is total rubbish. compared to the investment the state makes in training and educating people what business does to a new employ is barely is worth talking about. So if a firm wants to operate in a well educated society it should be willing to play a more 'social' game. Be happy to wear the costs of continuing the human existence.
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  #143  
Old 02.02.2012, 09:23
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

Oh, c’mon, are we living in 21st century or what? There are reasons why there is paid maternity leave, paid absence from work, and why employer is not allowed to ask about pregnancy (and other health related issues, etc).

Those reasons are put through in the law, and they are essentially product of civilization. The employment law, the way it exists today, while it may not be perfect is certainly much more civilized than it used to be, say, a century ago, when a woman could be fired for being pregnant (!).


If you look at Scandinavia, (Finland for example) - I don’t see how their model is not beneficial for the business. Of course each woman gets paid maternity leave, 1 year, with 90% of salary. Some choose to have 2nd kid right after, which is looked upon as a great thing, contribution and sacrifice for the good of the society, and companies are fully supportive. Yet, somehow, Finland has been the most competitive economy in the world for a number of years since year2000. The most competitive comes from the fact(among others) that women work there, have the chance to give birth and stay at home, have excellent child care, and build their career with support from colleagues and companies.


This is NOT milking the system. Women are entitled to being free to conceive,give birth and raise kids whenever they please. This is civilization. Like voting, like right to be free. Right tohave kids whenever you want.

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  #144  
Old 02.02.2012, 09:38
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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Women with children are expected to stay at home to look after their kids and prepare dinner for their husband
Umm, no, only dinner for the kids, I have always prepared the dinner for us!

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  #145  
Old 02.02.2012, 10:07
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Mmm hmm, thanks for proving my point, really.

You, nigelr, little isabella (and Nil) all piling on Chemmie...? No wonder some folks focus on how badly folks are ganged up on here.
Oh, the drama. Break out the violins. I jest, I jest. ;p

But seriously, I think most all of us have been the lone debater in an issue before and there's no need for the hyperbole of "ganged up on." My posts are no more contentious than the person I'm arguing against.

Now back to it...(good thing I didn't break out some Persian swear words. Guess I wasn't raised that well by my parents. Dad would be disappointed) ;p

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One thing that I think is being missed here is that we are talking about having children as if it's all, and only, for the benefit and joy of the parents. Whilst it is certainly true that children give great joy to their parents, and the majority of parents provide responsibly for their children's needs, those children are also a massive (and necessary) resource for the wider community. We need to have children born (or brought) into society in order to keep the economy going, do the work that is necessary and provide for the elderly and the future generations. If everyone stopped having children tomorrow, then, we are doomed. What society (and therefore the businesses that profit from being in our society - they all sell or buy something from someone else after all) need, is a continuity of people/consumers/workers etc etc, provided through births or immigration. But what businesses don't want to pay for is for those people to be born and raised, or maybe even educated. (In fact oftentimes even individuals say this - 'why should I pay taxes to pay for ...XYZ...someone else's child....etc.').
Children, and their ability to usefully contribute to society in the future, are so important that the process of bringing children into the world (maternity/paternity rights during pregnancy and the post natal months) and then raising them should be protected and supported. And this means that businesses, that have a huge tendency to only look at their bottom line, must be 'forced' to support maternity protection but also supported in this through general taxation (I don't know here, but certainly if you have a small business in the UK the government helps with the payment of statutory maternity payments).
We need to stop thinking of children as the parent's little indulgence, or total responsibility, we all have a vested interest in producing a well balanced, active, responsible 'younger generation.
I was just about to post a much less eloquent summary of what you said. I couldn't agree more, especially with your last sentence. We talk so much about the woman as an isolated individual. Maternity leave isn't about one person but the entire community.

The most upsetting thing I see in this thread is a "me, myself and I" mentality. From this comes a distinct lack of empathy. It's a dangerous thing.

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This should be read as the situations where they were taking on the job just to get maternity pay.
I'll explain where I have a hard time believing that so many of your fellow nursing students specifically made statements about getting past probation so they could "milk" the system and get maternity pay.

Were you in a class with a lot of women who were married or in committed relationships? Because I find it hard to believe that most students would be planning for their first full-time job, only to get through 1-3 months of probation and get pregnant right away as single mums.

It doesn't add up to me. Correct me where I'm wrong?

Last edited by MusicChick; 03.02.2012 at 01:32. Reason: merging consecutive posts
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  #146  
Old 02.02.2012, 11:42
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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I was just about to post a much less eloquent summary of what you said. I couldn't agree more, especially with your last sentence. We talk so much about the woman as an isolated individual. Maternity leave isn't about one person but the entire community.

The most upsetting thing I see in this thread is a "me, myself and I" mentality. From this comes a distinct lack of empathy. It's a dangerous thing.
I don't see it that way - I see it that so far, there still isn't an actually fair and equitable solution to the problem. How to have kids without your own career suffering AND without adversely affecting your team... that's the question. It still needs a lot of work. Things that are unfair and need work are irritating for everyone, not just the people on one side of the issue or the other.


For my own perspective, heck, from my own experiences working with women who were pregnant and "trying to conceive" - it really can be incredibly tough to work with people in such hormonal states of existence. I think to make life better for all of us, they should simply be given time off, with some amount of pay, from the start of things until they are "fit for duty" again.

Of course, that's something of another "slippery slope" as women heading toward menopause can start to get a bit widgey too (or maybe it's all the regulated hormones through use of birth control pills that makes any other state seem so dysfunctional?).

And don't even get me started on how unreliable men hitting their "midlife crisis" can be.
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  #147  
Old 02.02.2012, 15:02
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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You see, I don't have a snake, I never had a snake. I can imagine how to take care of it, feed it and whatever comes with it. But until I own one, I can only imagine and get my informations from someone who has a snake. The chances are that when I will own a snake, I will find out a lot of stuff I didn't know and a lot if stuff I thought I knew but I don't. I will also find out that, yes some stuff I knew already. But until I have a snake, I can't call myself an expert in snakery.
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Well I compared with a snake because it is much less work than a child and has much less responsibility and knowledge needed.


All I'm saying is that as a woman, you can go out an get a snake any time you want to
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  #148  
Old 02.02.2012, 16:06
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

I'm willing to accept an overall fine system that has some flaws to be worked out over a non-existent system that affords women no protections whatsoever. An even fairer system would be one where, if both spouses work, both spouses are required to take time off, in alternating days or weeks, to care for children. That way women have more of a chance of keeping their careers going and the men have an equal chance of getting laid off for spending too much time 'raising a family' (shock horror). We are living in a advanced glorious country of happy cows and superb chocolate, so I'm reasonably sure the local men folk will be completely happy with this proposal.













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Old 02.02.2012, 16:53
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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I'll explain where I have a hard time believing that so many of your fellow nursing students specifically made statements about getting past probation so they could "milk" the system and get maternity pay.

Were you in a class with a lot of women who were married or in committed relationships? Because I find it hard to believe that most students would be planning for their first full-time job, only to get through 1-3 months of probation and get pregnant right away as single mums.

It doesn't add up to me. Correct me where I'm wrong?
Definitely true about this. we were all in long term relationships/or married. Also many came from families and locations where it was strange if you were 18 and did not have child, even stranger if you were 21 and didn't have 2.
By the time me and my ex were past our mid twenties, some of the 'hometown neighbors' were gossiping that one of use might be sterile.

As for planning for their jobs: it's nursing, expect for a few situations of continuing to practitioner, at my school it was generally a field where you worked in the type of nursing you did your last few placements it, and the last couple years of school were just working placements for free anyways with minimal coursework. Generally speaking, not a huge amount of ladder climbing in that field.

So yes this was a select sample set, but I think the overall point to be made was this was discussed, openly, and acceptably to all and everyone, and no one spoke up as to this being perhaps a bit devious.
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  #150  
Old 02.02.2012, 20:01
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

I think the problem with maternity leave in general is the way it is paid for (and this is not a problem unique to CH). A long history of inequality in the workplace has shown that companies don't want to (i.e. it imposes an extra cost burden on them) support mothers through the time when they are not productive in childbirth. In the past this has manifested itself in companies firing women on marriage or on becoming pregnant.

As voters in CH and many other countries, we have passed laws to make this illegal and to protect the employment rights of women (a good thing). The problem is, we as taxpayers then dump the costs of meeting these provisions back on the employers. Naturally they will be therefore reluctant to take on an employee who they perceive as being a high risk of imposing significant extra cost burdens on the company. To protect women in this demographic from being discriminated against we pass extra laws to attempt to prevent this discrimination from happening (which has been done but clearly is not working very well). A better solution would be for those who impose this extra cost burden on companies (voters) to fund that extra cost burden, so that supporting a woman through maternity is less onerous on the company, perhaps by a tax break equal to the cost of employing temporary cover.

Most companies are not run by bigoted child-hating people, they are run by people with an eye on the bottom line. Fix their bottom line concerns and you fix the anti-motherhood concerns to a large degree.
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  #151  
Old 02.02.2012, 20:08
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

I don't understand your post, since employers in Switzerland who pay statutory maternity leave are reimbursed by social security funds (e.g. Ausgleichskasse Zurich).
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I think the problem with maternity leave in general is the way it is paid for (and this is not a problem unique to CH). A long history of inequality in the workplace has shown that companies don't want to (i.e. it imposes an extra cost burden on them) support mothers through the time when they are not productive in childbirth. In the past this has manifested itself in companies firing women on marriage or on becoming pregnant.

As voters in CH and many other countries, we have passed laws to make this illegal and to protect the employment rights of women (a good thing). The problem is, we as taxpayers then dump the costs of meeting these provisions back on the employers. Naturally they will be therefore reluctant to take on an employee who they perceive as being a high risk of imposing significant extra cost burdens on the company. To protect women in this demographic from being discriminated against we pass extra laws to attempt to prevent this discrimination from happening (which has been done but clearly is not working very well). A better solution would be for those who impose this extra cost burden on companies (voters) to fund that extra cost burden, so that supporting a woman through maternity is less onerous on the company, perhaps by a tax break equal to the cost of employing temporary cover.

Most companies are not run by bigoted child-hating people, they are run by people with an eye on the bottom line. Fix their bottom line concerns and you fix the anti-motherhood concerns to a large degree.
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  #152  
Old 03.02.2012, 10:08
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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I don't understand your post, since employers in Switzerland who pay statutory maternity leave are reimbursed by social security funds (e.g. Ausgleichskasse Zurich).
I don't think it's about the money, but the "annoyance" of women leaving for several months......yes poor employers...


It's quite funny actually, Switzerland whine about too many foreigners, but the support for women which want to start working is failing miserably!

The whole Swiss system is made for women to be at home, that's fine, but it's time to make sure that women can have a job and a family...

So women should be encouraged to have children, they are the future of this country, it's just short sighted people who sees it differently...

http://www.timesherald.com/article/2...139994/-1/news
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  #153  
Old 04.02.2012, 01:00
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

Interesting article from NY Times: "Working Women Are the Key for Norway's Prosperity"

Interestingly, as author pointed out, employers there lobby for longer parental leave for fathers, understanding that, in the end, this brings the competitive advantage to the company (and to the society)

Article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/29/wo...pagewanted=all

My opinion is that Switzerland will be there in about 30 years or so. Switzerland has still a long way to go in terms of gender equality, equal employment and equal pay.

You cant have perfect country, and here is something that needs repairs, and fast. It seems that changes are underway, though - Basel Stadt is introducing state owned full-day child care (wow!); Swisscom is giving 4 weeks extra compared to legal minimum for mothers to take care of their baby (with full salary). Nice.
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  #154  
Old 04.02.2012, 05:17
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

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Mmm hmm, thanks for proving my point, really.

You, nigelr, little isabella (and Nil) all piling on Chemmie...? No wonder some folks focus on how badly folks are ganged up on here.


As NicoleCZ (and apparently Chris Rock) said - it isn't right, but it is understandable. It DOES affect business when parents are out for maternity / paternity and the position has to be held. No real "ifs, ands or buts" about it.

However, IF organizations asked (were legally permitted to ask), whether a potential new-hire was planning to have children soon, they could plan ahead. They could set up a fund to help compensate for the cost differences, they could experiment with work-from-home situations to see if there were viability, etc, etc. IF they were legally permitted to ask, they could (should!) ask men as well, and provide the same sort of benefits to the men also.

Instead of attacking the problem, and seeing only the bad of it (discrimination or potential discrimination against women), why not help figure out a viable solution, one that honestly works for everyone (or as many as possible anyhow).




Turn-about isn't fair play? Doesn't feel nice, does it?
agree. simple solution might be to allow such questions to be asked and to give total freedom to fire people when they are unable to perform the duties they are paid to do.

while it sounds harsh, in the end it should give more jobs to people. kind of like the situation in france, where the laws against firing people are so difficult that nobody hires in the first place. better allow employers to hire and see if it works out and have the chance of creating long term jobs and successful businesses than not even try out of fear of employment law hassles.
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  #155  
Old 07.02.2012, 21:00
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

It isn't legally allowed to ask this question in Switzerland,but the problem is this:if the person asks you and you say: I will not be answering this question- you basically loose the job. Who wants a person that doesn't reply to such question. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you it is ridiculous and I have ALWAYS had this questions in previous interviews.
I always replied: One day I most probably will have kids, not today, nor tomorrow, but one day, but I will also have a job.(Smile).If you say it as confidently as if you really knew deep inside of you that you WILL have a successful career and you WILL have kids and a family (just like they do), they will, even if they don't admit it, love you for that courage and confidence.They do want you to be honest, if a woman replies that she will never have kids,they probably won't believe you and think you just want to get the job.
I never got rejected by an employer by saying those exact words and frankly,had I got rejected for this reason, I wouldn't want to work for them in the first place.
Good luck for your future interviews and your career!:-)
Valeska

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Old 20.02.2012, 23:55
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

A familiy orientated society is what makes Switzerland such a successful and safe country.
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Old 25.10.2012, 13:37
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

Hi, this is an old thread but excuse me for wanting to share an experience, just to get it off my chest, relatively anonymously (!)
I am a foreigner working as an independent in Switzerland, basically to keep me working until hopefully I find a more stable job. I have a very niche set of skills, and there is basically a handful of places that would take me on full-time, I think. At a first interview at one of these places, everything went well. On the day of the second interview, I found out I was pregnant just before I set off. I went through the interview, which was with HR, very positive. I didn't tell them, because I thought they wouldn't even go through the interview and I wanted them to really listen to me, without distraction. After that interview, I met my initial contact at the firm and was 100% honest. He pointed out, quite reasonably, there was a 3 month trial and things would become evident by that time. So we told HR. 2 days later, I got word they wouldn't be taking me on. They put nothing in writing, but told me on the phone that they couldn't take someone on for them to take 3 months off, possibly more, so soon. I understand the costs issue for a business totally - I'm a business myself. But even though it's illegal, I'm hardly likely to come out and sue them am I? The power is in their hands because later on, I'm going to probably still be applying to them for a job. The only thing that could possibly have made any difference would be if we could choose if the father or the mother could have maternity leave (parental leave?) because leaving for a month is not really so different to having someone on a mega-holiday.

Anyway unfortunately the pregnancy didn't work out, if only I'd lied or been a bit forgetful I'd have been fine, and in a nice new job. But never mind. I would say in the above case lying was totally fine, get into a firm, prove you can do the job, then do what you want.
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Old 25.10.2012, 22:18
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

I work in a busy IT team with a number of female colleagues who are also mothers. All are highly competent in their respective fields and make a success at doing their jobs properly and taking care of their children. It is very hard but they do it. My employer also has policies ensuring flexibility for people with families - and we are not talking huge allowances here.

It would be a shame if those colleagues had to leave their jobs just because they happen to be mums too - who else would do all the multitasking?

Companies who don't have family friendly policies don't deserve to retain the best workers.

Cheers,
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Old 27.10.2012, 20:22
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

That is ILLEGAL in the US .... and I wonder if they ever ask male candidates the same question?

You have every reason to be upset!
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Old 27.10.2012, 21:48
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Re: tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children.

The Swiss are sexists
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Dear all, I just have to say it: I am tired of being asked in jobs interviews if I would like to have children. This form of discrimination is getting on my nerves. I come from a South European country, and I have NEVER been asked this question, never!

I love this country, I really feel good living here but when it comes to this, I just have to say NO WAY. Since I came to Swizterland, almost 2 years ago, I have been working in some places part-time. Always international organizations in medium positions (manager). Always asked. But what kind of answer can you give when you feel threatened??? I have gave so many difference. First time I was impressed, second time I turned red, third, I just passed.

Now, I have almost reached the professional level I had before coming. And always the same question! International organizations and women! Women asked this question! Isn't it insane? If you do not want to take the risk do not call women between 30-40 years old and just married!

Should I be afraid of getting pregnant EVER in Swizertland? Of course, not, I know but the behavior makes me wonder.

This is my unique complain about this country, that I love, but the hypocrisy on this issue really upsets me.

thanks for reading my complain. We need to do something.

take care,

FPW (future pregnant worker, no matter what!)
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