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Old 28.02.2012, 13:48
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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We are the parents to a particularly active and vocal 2 year old daughter. When we travel by train, you (as fellow passengers) have 2 choices:

- Let her run up and down the isles happy
- Restrain her in her seat and try and distract her. It will last 5 minutes before she starts screaming in frustration.

Your choice - happy child or screaming child? Experience has shown a happy child is more passenger friendly (ie quieter) than one screaming/crying in frustration.

Short of a general anesthetic, we've tried everything else to try and occupy her quietly in her seat.

Edit: We make particular effort to ensure she does not physically bother other passengers or their property.
I dont buy that I am afraid.

My parents kept me in check with simplicity: embarrass us in public and you will face the wrath:









We, as in me and my two brothers, yes I know, my poor mum, were petrified of facing the wrath.

Sure I grew up somewhat resenting my dad, for the beatings he dished. Sure I hated him at the time. But, on reflection, they raised some damn good kids who fully understand, me more so being the worst of 3 I think, why he did what he did and how it was for the right reasons.

Trouble is, too many people believe smacking their children is damaging to their upbringing, hence why we are at where we are today.

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  #82  
Old 28.02.2012, 14:00
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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I dont buy that I am afraid.
Wow.

Have you tried reasoning with a 2 year old? Smack a 2 year old they only thing they learn is "Why is Daddy hurting me?".

Or is physical violence "the only language they understand"? Blast from the 70's school of parenting there. You do know smacking is illegal in some countries now, right?
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  #83  
Old 28.02.2012, 14:16
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

Personally, I think that the Swiss-Germans do not seem to be

1. bothered by their children's behaviour
2. may even think this is normal. It is only a child
3. simply do not know what to do

There seem to be no rules and borders and children are just looking to go that little step farther and farther just to get a reaction. Which is not coming.

I find this very sad and it definately does not help the children in the least. Children need to be shown and told what is right/not right and how to behave.

Very simple, actually.
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Old 28.02.2012, 14:25
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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Hi all,
Why is it that some parents think it is completely acceptable to allow their kids to run up and down and scream like banshees? I know the difference between children with disabilites ADHD etc and kids who are just blatantly rude and naughty.

We were travelling to Lugano for some winter sunshine yesterday and two little girls were just completely out of control. I did something I do not usually do and I actually told them to shut up. Their mothers completely ignored their behaviour and spent the trip texting and chatting away,even at one point put some music on just to pee us off further.
I just do not understand why people have so little consideration for other passengers. I would be mortified if someone else had to tell my kids off. If children do not travel well then they should be distracted with books and toys etc to avoid upsetting other people. They turned a really pleasant trip into a stressful journey. The ticket inspector had to climb over them to get down the aisle I was amazed he did not say anything to the mothers. This behaviour is commonplace over here,there seems to be a real lack of discipline from parents.
I think there should be family carriages on trains where people can choose to sit with kids or choose not if they so wish.

Rant over!!
Darcy
I agree that there's a total lack of discipline nowadays, but I don't only observe that in Switzerland but wherever I go. I think the family carriage is a hilarious idea. -If it should ever happen to me that I had to travel with my kids on the train I'd seat them there and myself in a quiet wagon
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  #85  
Old 28.02.2012, 14:44
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

Dacy , thats a Normal thing in CH. many parents dont give a DAMM , I live in LUGANO and I see it daily , also on the buses. if the parents dont care how can those kids have a good behavior. its like trainning a puppy if U do it wrongly he will bite another..
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  #86  
Old 28.02.2012, 14:47
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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I agree that there's a total lack of discipline nowadays, but I don't only observe that in Switzerland but wherever I go. I think the family carriage is a hilarious idea. -If it should ever happen to me that I had to travel with my kids on the train I'd seat them there and myself in a quiet wagon
Lol - it sounds a great idea. An indestructable carriage that's soundproof, vomitproof, with no sharp edges and plenty padding yet enough toys, climbing frames and video games to keep kids amused for hours without breaking. Also, a gerbil-like juice and food pellet feeder for when they're hungry. And a lock that only works from the outside...
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Old 28.02.2012, 15:02
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

oooh dear you sound worse than the swiss .....:-(((
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Old 28.02.2012, 15:04
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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oooh dear you sound worse than the swiss .....:-(((
Probably because the Swiss I know are super cool and love my kids.
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Old 28.02.2012, 15:22
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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Wow.

Have you tried reasoning with a 2 year old? Smack a 2 year old they only thing they learn is "Why is Daddy hurting me?".

Or is physical violence "the only language they understand"? Blast from the 70's school of parenting there. You do know smacking is illegal in some countries now, right?
If a dog can work it out, then I am sure a 2 year can. I am not advocating a royal beating, merely what used to be called common sense and common practice.

Illegal huh! Go figure. Not here its not, and not in the UK. Which countries?

I cant help but take a very basic glance at the older generations and my generation, where things were already on the way down in terms of child behaviours, and the generations coming through now where this attitude is more common place re: do not discipline children.

Must just be a coincidence the youth of today are getting more, more anti social, lacking respect for their elders or anyone, getting pregnant before they can legally work, and addicted to a life of drugs.
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Old 28.02.2012, 15:58
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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Must just be a coincidence the youth of today are getting more, more anti social, lacking respect for their elders or anyone, getting pregnant before they can legally work, and addicted to a life of drugs.
this statement is factually inaccurate, kids today are considerably more conformist and "respectful" than they were 50 years ago, and the principal drug use amongst today's kids is prescribed by doctors (often at the behest of parents). the real problem is that the typical adult (particularly those over the age of 50) is 1,000 more self-involved and self-aggrandizing than the typical adult 50 years ago.
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Old 28.02.2012, 16:25
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

Now a few lines out of the great book "Socio-psychology for family chat around the table, level 1"...
15 years of observation make me say the following (doesn't apply to you or your children, of course, you are all special):

Youth worse than before? No. They are in my eyes far more innocent by their actions than we were in the 80ies. Teen pregnancy is a good one: if you know sex and you're good at sex, not only you don't get pregnant but nobody even finds out you lost your virginity. Youth of today just have more access to information, pictures, films and discussion that are meant for adults and that they don't really understand, thus can't deal with it very well.

To me, the only real trend I could identify in my 15 years of teaching is, that youth of today don't want to grow up. The adults have done a wonderful work scaring them off adult life and all the difficulties and dangers of it. For reasons unknown to me, the satisfaction of maturity and the discovery of greater pleasures by renouncing immature satisfactions has vanished to a great extend. Nothing really new, I see parents of teenagers with the same tendencies.

Materialistic success measurement also pushes them in that direction: continue satisfying immediate desires like children by consuming, just getting bigger toys. Women are even worse off in that context: the pressure to be a "feminine" attractive young woman does not go totally without a tendency to infantilize women.

Youth of today are happy children and know that the generation of their parents are nostalgic of childhood. It doesn't take that much logic to figure out the syllogism: Children extend childhood because they extend happiness. All so human, I'm afraid.

However, that doesn't mean that we should make children's life a misery just to hope they will be happy to become adults. It doesn't work like that. First, children only have difficulties to cope with adulthood if they have not really learnt to socialize as adults. They socialize so well as children, that's all socializing is to them and should remain. As long as respecting rules does not give access to a greater pleasure than immediate satisfaction, there is no reason to be an adult... at all.

Respect of elders is one thing. But the younger generation often lacks even the capacity to acknowledge the meaning of presence of others around them. They can zap out people around them very easily, as if they could isolate parts of space around them and stay in this world, disconnected from our adult world. Nevertheless, this world does not disappear, and they live in this contradiction they can't solve. Rejecting a world that they can't reject. Suspending time that can not be suspended. Contemplating adult world from the other side of a river with no bridge in sight.

Lyric metaphors aside, parental education is about exactly that. When that part is missing, it's the parents that miss the point. One sees the difference of parental education in students' behaviour and attitudes as a teacher. My guess is that citizens traveling in a Zürich-Lugano train see that too.
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Old 28.02.2012, 16:39
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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I dont buy that I am afraid.

My parents kept me in check with simplicity: embarrass us in public and you will face the wrath:









We, as in me and my two brothers, yes I know, my poor mum, were petrified of facing the wrath.

Sure I grew up somewhat resenting my dad, for the beatings he dished. Sure I hated him at the time. But, on reflection, they raised some damn good kids who fully understand, me more so being the worst of 3 I think, why he did what he did and how it was for the right reasons.

Trouble is, too many people believe smacking their children is damaging to their upbringing, hence why we are at where we are today.

Pregnant children
No respect
Alcoholism and drug addicts before the age of 15
I think the biggest fallacy here is the idea that everyone was in some way 'well behaved' in the 50's and that there was no preggers kids and antisocial behavior or alcohol abuse. The reality is that violent crime rape and racist abuse/ beatings were at an all time high in the 50's, it just wasn't reported, if a young girl had been raped or had a baby with an older man then the mother of the family would take responsibility for the baby and pretend to be the mother without involving the police. Women were openly mocked by their peers for accusing men of rape and often, due to the male biased criminal justice system of Britain at the time, rape cases rarely made it to court.
Alcoholism was wide spread, post war depression led to an immense amount of alcoholism and suicide, what we would call post traumatic stress these days was thought of as weakness, domestic violence was at an all time high.

The sprawling council estates with no transport links around Glasgow London and Birmingham where bursting at the seams with angry mobs in the 50’s roaming the streets, Jamaican emigrants where afraid to leave their homes, and if they did they where confronted with an overtly racist British public.

Maybe the 1950’s weren’t all ‘Tom Brown’s school days’ and ‘Listen with mother’ and more the inevitable social decay of the aftermath of a horrendous war.

In the light of this shocking revelation that 1950 was not an ‘Enid Blyton’ novel, and society is actually considerably better now; the violence shown to you and your family by your father seems to be meaningless.

I also think that there is no corollary between the disobedience of children and the antisocial violence of adults.
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Old 28.02.2012, 16:44
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers." I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.~attributed to Hesiod (8th century B.C.) (words of Socrates, as described by Plato)
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Old 28.02.2012, 16:50
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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attributed to Hesiod (8th century B.C.) (words of Socrates, as described by Plato)
[/B][/FONT]
So what? Does that mean that you don't educate children because education has been a hard job in the last 3000 years and probably before?
What do you have to say about this quote? Can you think by yourself or do you quote Greeks as avoidance tactics?

I'm sure you have a well functioning brain, we're all ears and will listen to your wise words even without the Greek authority argument.
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Old 28.02.2012, 17:08
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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So what? Does that mean that you don't educate children because education has been a hard job in the last 3000 years and probably before?
What do you have to say about this quote? Can you think by yourself or do you quote Greeks as avoidance tactics?

I'm sure you have a well functioning brain, we're all ears and will listen to your wise words even without the Greek authority argument.
the Greek quote doesn't speak to issues regarding education, it speaks to issues regarding socialization. candidly, the biggest issue I see with the way we raise our children these days is that our institutions make the same mistake, they confuse the job of educating with the job of socializing.
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Old 28.02.2012, 17:39
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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Must just be a coincidence the youth of today are getting more, more anti social, lacking respect for their elders or anyone, getting pregnant before they can legally work, and addicted to a life of drugs.
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What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?

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The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.
I think it's normal that old people complain about youth.
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Old 28.02.2012, 17:52
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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Hi all,
Why is it that some parents think it is completely acceptable to allow their kids to run up and down and scream like banshees? I know the difference between children with disabilites ADHD etc and kids who are just blatantly rude and naughty.

We were travelling to Lugano for some winter sunshine yesterday and two little girls were just completely out of control. I did something I do not usually do and I actually told them to shut up. Their mothers completely ignored their behaviour and spent the trip texting and chatting away,even at one point put some music on just to pee us off further.
I just do not understand why people have so little consideration for other passengers. I would be mortified if someone else had to tell my kids off. If children do not travel well then they should be distracted with books and toys etc to avoid upsetting other people. They turned a really pleasant trip into a stressful journey. The ticket inspector had to climb over them to get down the aisle I was amazed he did not say anything to the mothers. This behaviour is commonplace over here,there seems to be a real lack of discipline from parents.
I think there should be family carriages on trains where people can choose to sit with kids or choose not if they so wish.

Rant over!!
Darcy
There normally is a family carriage.... and normally in these Germanic cultures, the children are very well behaved and disciplined. Were these kids Swiss????

You could also get up and talk to the parents, tell them off for not controlling their children. The have the responsibility to be adults.

Is there penalty in Switzerland for taking a bratty child over the knee if you're not the parent?
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Old 28.02.2012, 18:27
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

Ignorance is bliss here i see.

A lot of padded out waffle I have no interest entertaining.

It really is quite simple in my opinion and my experience:

Lack of authority in schools has resulted in poorly behaved ill disciplined adults with poor values.

Kids having kids need not be explained really. Though a side note:you are required to take two tests to own a dog in this country, and it should be trained etc, yet any idiot can bring a child into the world.

I also wonder if it's a coincidence out of the estate I grew up on, and people I've known, that the parents who let them do as they pleased have amounted to very little in life.
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Old 28.02.2012, 18:38
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

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"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers." I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.~attributed to Hesiod (8th century B.C.) (words of Socrates, as described by Plato)
There's no actual proof that this was ever said, as far as I understand.
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Old 28.02.2012, 18:40
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Re: Bad behaviour on trip to Lugano

Lack of authority in schools has resulted in poorly behaved ill disciplined adults with poor values.

It should really not be up to the school to educate the children in this respect but the parents. And this is lacking. The schools even mention this but cannot do a lot. If the children do not receive a proper social education from home what can one expect them being well behaved elsewhere?
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