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  #221  
Old 21.03.2012, 15:54
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Just because you want some things to change doesn't mean that you hate the place you live and it certainly doesn't mean you think your previous country was utopia. I wouldn't be here if my previous country was utopia because I made the choice to come here. I love it here, but that doesn't mean that everything that happens is perfect. There are things that I find difficult to get used to, and I will probably never get used to them because I know it CAN be done better. Why do people jump to the conclusion that because you want a few things to change that you hate it. Everybody would then hate everything because there is always something that can improve. Does that mean I hate my car because I don't like the placement of the cup holders? No...it means that is something that could be improved...that is all.
While I haven't read the whole thread your posts in general and this one in particular show's a common problem many expats seem to have....the inability to realize that your particular preference for XYZ is just one among many, some mutually exclusive, preferences. Maybe you are right, maybe not and maybe it's irrelevant because nobody else wants the trade-offs you gloss over or blithely accept.

Either way, majority rules, you lose. You can either accept that and hope for some future change or you can be proactive and choose to find some other place that will (maybe) benefit from you. Ranting on a random forum to mostly like minded individuals will likely make you feel better in the short term, but not provide any lasting relief.

If you happen to be the odd God or Supernatural Entity who can genuinely see THE WAY, then my grovelling apologies for insulting your divine being.

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The last time I was in Europe before I moved over, a friend got quite upset with me because I wouldn't spend the WHOLE weekend and leave on a Monday morning. I said, "Oh no. I'm not spending a boring Sunday in France with everything closed! I'd rather go home!"
Ah yes..the shopping mall lifestyle. Personally I find it Souldestroying and sad, but obviously many people think differently.

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  #222  
Old 21.03.2012, 16:00
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Lunchtime is the best time for sex.
It hardly fills you up though, does it?

(on second thoughts.....)
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  #223  
Old 21.03.2012, 16:18
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Ah yes..the shopping mall lifestyle. Personally I find it Souldestroying and sad, but obviously many people think differently.
And imagine just for a second that other people may actually think in different ways and place values on different things. Who is anyone to judge another for their personal likes? If you choose to shop at a huge mall all day Sunday on a beautiful spring day, who the hell am I to say that "that is sad" Passing judgement on people for not liking or doing things you do or like is nothing short of discrimination and self righteous BS. For God sake let people be who they are and do what makes them happy. If that is eating at a cafe at lunch instead of spending time at home, so be it. If that means buying 50 pairs of shoes when you only need 4, let them do it. How dare anyone make someone feel bad for doing something they enjoy even if you would never want to do it yourself.
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  #224  
Old 21.03.2012, 16:21
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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And imagine just for a second that other people may actually think in different ways and place values on different things. Who is anyone to judge another for their personal likes? If you choose to shop at a huge mall all day Sunday on a beautiful spring day, who the hell am I to say that "that is sad" Passing judgement on people for not liking or doing things you do or like is nothing short of discrimination and self righteous BS. For God sake let people be who they are and do what makes them happy. If that is eating at a cafe at lunch instead of spending time at home, so be it. If that means buying 50 pairs of shoes when you only need 4, let them do it. How dare anyone make someone feel bad for doing something they enjoy even if you would never want to do it yourself.
Does that also count for a business to decide wether to open for certain hours or not?

And no, wanting to spend a day at the mall is not sad in any way, but neither is the desire to spend lunchtime at home, if one has the possibility to do so.
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  #225  
Old 21.03.2012, 16:30
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Does that also count for a business to decide wether to open for certain hours or not?

And no, wanting to spend a day at the mall is not sad in any way, but neither is the desire to spend lunchtime at home, if one has the chance to do so.
Ah yes....you are so right and I thank you so much. Notice how I never condemned the place, just asked why. I have NO issue asking someone WHY they choose to shop all day Sunday or why they buy so many shoes as long as you don't judge them. This post simply started with my frustration and lack of understanding of why. Never did I say the place sucked or how stupid they were. They have every right to close, I was just not understanding the reason for it.
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  #226  
Old 21.03.2012, 16:41
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Ah yes....you are so right and I thank you so much. Notice how I never condemned the place, just asked why. I have NO issue asking someone WHY they choose to shop all day Sunday or why they buy so many shoes as long as you don't judge them. This post simply started with my frustration and lack of understanding of why. Never did I say the place sucked or how stupid they were. They have every right to close, I was just not understanding the reason for it.
It's like the local Denner, they (owners and staff) ALL go home at lunch and close 12-14:30 (except Saturdays).

They have kids and husbands who also go home during this time (well, the kids go back to school at 13:15 or so).

Some other Denners around here are open at lunch, and others not, but that staff at those open during lunch seem less happy to me.

Tom
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  #227  
Old 21.03.2012, 18:47
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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And imagine just for a second that other people may actually think in different ways and place values on different things. Who is anyone to judge another for their personal likes? If you choose to shop at a huge mall all day Sunday on a beautiful spring day, who the hell am I to say that "that is sad" Passing judgement on people for not liking or doing things you do or like is nothing short of discrimination and self righteous BS. For God sake let people be who they are and do what makes them happy. If that is eating at a cafe at lunch instead of spending time at home, so be it. If that means buying 50 pairs of shoes when you only need 4, let them do it. How dare anyone make someone feel bad for doing something they enjoy even if you would never want to do it yourself.
Hook, line and sinker.

Perfect description of pretty much all your posts on this thread, though you didn't seem to notice it until now. I suggest you reread your earlier posts with the above sentences in mind.

EDIT: If your earlier rant is example where you are not being judgemental, I wonder what it looks like when you are...
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  #228  
Old 21.03.2012, 19:25
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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I bet the brothels are closed over lunch
Are you leading up to an "eating out" joke?
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Old 21.03.2012, 19:26
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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And imagine just for a second that other people may actually think in different ways and place values on different things. Who is anyone to judge another for their personal likes? If you choose to shop at a huge mall all day Sunday on a beautiful spring day, who the hell am I to say that "that is sad" Passing judgement on people for not liking or doing things you do or like is nothing short of discrimination and self righteous BS. For God sake let people be who they are and do what makes them happy. If that is eating at a cafe at lunch instead of spending time at home, so be it. If that means buying 50 pairs of shoes when you only need 4, let them do it. How dare anyone make someone feel bad for doing something they enjoy even if you would never want to do it yourself.
Funniest post in a very very long time- thanks

Go on, read it again then go back over your posts on this thread. Hilarious.
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  #230  
Old 21.03.2012, 19:35
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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NO, it should not be just ''Swiss'' people that make the change, if I live and work and pay taxes here I am absolutely entitled to voice my opinions about the place I live and work and pay taxes in. Ridiculous!

Like was mentioned before on this thread, what is wrong with making observations or criticizing something you don't agree with? Why does mentioning some aspects you liked about your home country = ''my home county is Utopia''? That is such a narrow-minded way of thinking, especially refusing to take any criticism or making statements like, ''go back home''. How in the world do you think things improve otherwise??

Anyway, yes, there are probably some cultures here that don't see anything wrong with the business hours, I am not denying that. But where are they coming from usually? In my experience they come for less wealthy nations where it really is too expensive to open your own store or stay open for long hours.
I am not refusing your criticsm. I am not saying you should not have an opinion. What I am saying is that I don't agree with your critisms or opinions. And you think if the Swiss did things your way it is only an improvement. So it's either what you say(improvement), or what I say(archaic)? I don't think so.

I said you should go home to your country if you aren't satisfied here, because, you are a Guest. It's like this sandwich shop discussion, though it's a bakery. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. It's the point he made. If Swiss don't change their way of business he would go somewhere, where they would.

So I am saying it to you, or him. If you came to my house as a dinner guest or sleeping over, and you didn't like the food, or the fact the sheets aren't on 5000 thread Egyptian cotton, then I would tell them where to go. I would listen what they had to say, but if it is so un bearable what I decided to serve or bedding, why would you stay?

You want to "improve" things to the way you are used to them, and it's hardly being a good guest. You rather the Swiss get used to you, rather you get used to a country that gave you a Permit to be here over another person. Or re-investing into a Swiss resident to do you job.

Yeah, I think so.
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  #231  
Old 21.03.2012, 19:47
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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I lived and worked in Zurich for four years before moving south, don't recall anyone eating sandwiches except as snacks.



And motorcycling, though not both at once!

Tom

P.S. I spent today's lunch buying fertilizer, and going to the DMV in Camorino to get some license plates, so that I can spend tomorrow's 90 minute lunch break motorcycling!
I lived in rural SZ and everyone ate sandwiches for lunch. However, they did find a way to buy them before noon closing hours.
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  #232  
Old 21.03.2012, 19:50
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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This is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard of.
Well I certainly did put my foot in my mouth. As part of my frantic rant (and being a bit tipsy on Kaffee mit Bailey's) I made this comment that goes against how I view the world. I have looked at my other posts here and feel like this is where I was wrong. Although I feel it very strange, it is by all means the business' right to open and close as they please. I now look like a hypocrite and that humbles me. Thank you to the posters who pointed it out.
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  #233  
Old 21.03.2012, 20:01
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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So I am saying it to you, or him. If you came to my house as a dinner guest or sleeping over, and you didn't like the food, or the fact the sheets aren't on 5000 thread Egyptian cotton, then I would tell them where to go. I would listen what they had to say, but if it is so un bearable what I decided to serve or bedding, why would you stay?

You want to "improve" things to the way you are used to them, and it's hardly being a good guest. You rather the Swiss get used to you, rather you get used to a country that gave you a Permit to be here over another person. Or re-investing into a Swiss resident to do you job.

Yeah, I think so.
While I see what you are saying and understand to a point, there is a big difference. A guest at your house is giving nothing to you, you are the one giving to them (food, bedding) and asking nothing in return. In this case it is rude to complain. Now what if that guest paid for a room and meal? Now he has a say because he is paying and contributing something in return. While I am not a Swiss citizen, I pay the same tax rate, shop in the same stores and buy the same food. How does that not give me a right to have a say? I'm not a freeloader and with the exception of things I can't get in CH, I buy local products. I take nothing for free from here. Hell....being American I still can't leave a restaurant without tipping. I know it is hard for citizens who feel like they are being invaded but Switzerland benefits from my family being here and my familiy benefits from being here.
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  #234  
Old 21.03.2012, 20:02
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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I am not refusing your criticsm. I am not saying you should not have an opinion. What I am saying is that I don't agree with your critisms or opinions. And you think if the Swiss did things your way it is only an improvement. So it's either what you say(improvement), or what I say(archaic)? I don't think so.

I said you should go home to your country if you aren't satisfied here, because, you are a Guest. It's like this sandwich shop discussion, though it's a bakery. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. It's the point he made. If Swiss don't change their way of business he would go somewhere, where they would.

So I am saying it to you, or him. If you came to my house as a dinner guest or sleeping over, and you didn't like the food, or the fact the sheets aren't on 5000 thread Egyptian cotton, then I would tell them where to go. I would listen what they had to say, but if it is so un bearable what I decided to serve or bedding, why would you stay?

You want to "improve" things to the way you are used to them, and it's hardly being a good guest. You rather the Swiss get used to you, rather you get used to a country that gave you a Permit to be here over another person. Or re-investing into a Swiss resident to do you job.

Yeah, I think so.
Pretty bloody audacious post there.

What makes you think she's a "guest"? What makes you think she got a permit "over another person"? Define "guest" exactly, because I bet you don't charge your "guests" to stay with you. Would you then say that a guest at a hotel has no right to an opinion of their stay?

Besides, there are plenty of Swiss and Swiss descendent on this forum.

Is not the point of a democratic society that the voice of the people be heard? How would one voice an opinion if archaic-minded people like yourself (not due to the specific opinion, but the manner of attack is yes, archaic) take the first moment of opportunity to stomp all over it and make claims of "if you don't like it, go home"? Things do change, the operating hours and mentality thereof here will too, in time. No place is perfect, some things are harder for some people to take than others.

What I have a huge problem with, more than any complaint I have of here, or anywhere else I've lived however, is the self-congratulatory zealots that spout the same inane drivel - and yes, people like you are to be found everywhere. The amazing thing though, is that the worst aren't usually even native!! It's almost as if they've staked out everything on this new land and will damned well fight as long as possible to avoid any possible inkling that the place isn't complete paradise.


As has been stated many times, an observation, complaint, whatever you want to call it about a single point in no way indicates that the entire system is junk. I think, just a thought, but maybe the majority of the amazingly repetitive complaints here could be spurred by the fact that Zürich/Geneva -by their own making or otherwise- are generally billed as a modern, international "centres". Expats and internationals then expect a similar experience to other large cities - which they won't get, because they're just not. Doesn't make them any less valuable, they're just not New York, Tokyo, Paris etc.
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  #235  
Old 21.03.2012, 20:13
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While I see what you are saying and understand to a point, there is a big difference. A guest at your house is giving nothing to you, you are the one giving to them (food, bedding) and asking nothing in return. In this case it is rude to complain. Now what if that guest paid for a room and meal? Now he has a say because he is paying and contributing something in return. While I am not a Swiss citizen, I pay the same tax rate, shop in the same stores and buy the same food. How does that not give me a right to have a say? I'm not a freeloader and with the exception of things I can't get in CH, I buy local products. I take nothing for free from here. Hell....being American I still can't leave a restaurant without tipping. I know it is hard for citizens who feel like they are being invaded but Switzerland benefits from my family being here and my familiy benefits from being here.
You aren't paying taxes to people here, you are paying it to the government based on a salary you are actually taking away from the a fore mentioned people.

We aren't talking about human rights reform, we are talking about a social one. If you want to complain about the firefighting or waste management services that is something. But until you get that Permit C converted to a permanent passport, I don't see what why asking people to be different is your place. And asking people to live here to live different because you have arrived is a bit rude.

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Pretty bloody audacious post there.

What makes you think she's a "guest"? What makes you think she got a permit "over another person"? Define "guest" exactly, because I bet you don't charge your "guests" to stay with you. Would you then say that a guest at a hotel has no right to an opinion of their stay?

Besides, there are plenty of Swiss and Swiss descendent on this forum.

Is not the point of a democratic society that the voice of the people be heard? How would one voice an opinion if archaic-minded people like yourself (not due to the specific opinion, but the manner of attack is yes, archaic) take the first moment of opportunity to stomp all over it and make claims of "if you don't like it, go home"? Things do change, the operating hours and mentality thereof here will too, in time. No place is perfect, some things are harder for some people to take than others.

What I have a huge problem with, more than any complaint I have of here, or anywhere else I've lived however, is the self-congratulatory zealots that spout the same inane drivel - and yes, people like you are to be found everywhere. The amazing thing though, is that the worst aren't usually even native!! It's almost as if they've staked out everything on this new land and will damned well fight as long as possible to avoid any possible inkling that the place isn't complete paradise.


As has been stated many times, an observation, complaint, whatever you want to call it about a single point in no way indicates that the entire system is junk. I think, just a thought, but maybe the majority of the amazingly repetitive complaints here could be spurred by the fact that Zürich/Geneva -by their own making or otherwise- are generally billed as a modern, international "centres". Expats and internationals then expect a similar experience to other large cities - which they won't get, because they're just not. Doesn't make them any less valuable, they're just not New York, Tokyo, Paris etc.
This person got a Permit over another person because they aren't giving Permits to everyone, they are being selective, like every other country on this planet.

If we are going to talk about a democratic society, I will tell you this, only Passport holders have voting rights, end of discussion. There isn't a town hall meeting where the people that reside here are getting together, after you have been afforded so many rights to be here, to also address what you think of their rights to be at home with their families, and if they should give those rights/traditions up because some people can't get the sandwich before noon. Really can't see how that is going to happen(democratically).

And to respond to your Zealot remark...This is the 4th country I have lived in. And like you find me, I find people like you, always fresh off the boat, complaining about how the new country is not back home. And while I am still an American, and plan to be, I don't see until anyone puts down some sort of commitment, like change of passport for example, that we even know if that person will be here for another 6 months. If you are really willing to commit to one particular country, and show it by example, then complaining about the locals way of life is crap. Really.

I can see not liking it here. Not agreeing with it. But calling a host country's people backwards, and out of touch, non business wise, well it really means next to nothing to me other then insult.

This constant remark of some how foreigners are charged to be here, so they have the right to complain; I didn't see that tax on my form this year. Did I miss it? Oh you pay taxes...if you were here, and you were "there" you would pay taxes. What does that have to do with being a guest? You are a Guest in this country, until you own a Swiss passport.

Take it or leave it.

PS, how could I have been less audacious?

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. I think, just a thought, but maybe the majority of the amazingly repetitive complaints here could be spurred by the fact that Zürich/Geneva -by their own making or otherwise- are generally billed as a modern, international "centres". Expats and internationals then expect a similar experience to other large cities - which they won't get, because they're just not. Doesn't make them any less valuable, they're just not New York, Tokyo, Paris etc.
Why? I don't go to New York, then to Paris and think they will be anything alike. If I did, I would save some money and just stay in New York. Or go to Queens if I wanted to shake things up.

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Old 21.03.2012, 20:35
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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You aren't paying taxes to people here, you are paying it to the government based on a salary you are actually taking away from the a fore mentioned people.
Actually...no...I work for an International School and part of being able to work there as a primary school teacher is being a native English speaker. Since the Swiss are either native German (Swiss German), French or Italian, they cannot be considered for my job. So no.... I am not STEALING a job from any Swiss citizen.

Just a question.....apart from the compulsory military service and voting, what do citizens do more of to contribute to CH than foriegn born residents?

I used to hate my American friends who bemoaned the Hispanics living legally in the US. They are contributing just as much as citizens and sometimes more because they do jobs that citizens either can't or won't do.
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  #237  
Old 21.03.2012, 20:52
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Pretty bloody audacious post there.

What makes you think she's a "guest"? What makes you think she got a permit "over another person"? Define "guest" exactly, because I bet you don't charge your "guests" to stay with you. Would you then say that a guest at a hotel has no right to an opinion of their stay?

Besides, there are plenty of Swiss and Swiss descendent on this forum.

Is not the point of a democratic society that the voice of the people be heard? How would one voice an opinion if archaic-minded people like yourself (not due to the specific opinion, but the manner of attack is yes, archaic) take the first moment of opportunity to stomp all over it and make claims of "if you don't like it, go home"? Things do change, the operating hours and mentality thereof here will too, in time. No place is perfect, some things are harder for some people to take than others.

What I have a huge problem with, more than any complaint I have of here, or anywhere else I've lived however, is the self-congratulatory zealots that spout the same inane drivel - and yes, people like you are to be found everywhere. The amazing thing though, is that the worst aren't usually even native!! It's almost as if they've staked out everything on this new land and will damned well fight as long as possible to avoid any possible inkling that the place isn't complete paradise.


As has been stated many times, an observation, complaint, whatever you want to call it about a single point in no way indicates that the entire system is junk. I think, just a thought, but maybe the majority of the amazingly repetitive complaints here could be spurred by the fact that Zürich/Geneva -by their own making or otherwise- are generally billed as a modern, international "centres". Expats and internationals then expect a similar experience to other large cities - which they won't get, because they're just not. Doesn't make them any less valuable, they're just not New York, Tokyo, Paris etc.
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Actually...no...I work for an International School and part of being able to work there as a primary school teacher is being a native English speaker. Since the Swiss are either native German (Swiss German), French or Italian, they cannot be considered for my job. So no.... I am not STEALING a job from any Swiss citizen.

Just a question.....apart from the compulsory military service and voting, what do citizens do more of to contribute to CH than foriegn born residents?

I used to hate my American friends who bemoaned the Hispanics living legally in the US. They are contributing just as much as citizens and sometimes more because they do jobs that citizens either can't or won't do.
I think native speaking english is a bit of a matter of an opinion. No offense meant. There are Swiss people here that have lived in english speaking countries that know the language like the back of their hand, that I think would more then qualify.

I am not saying the Swiss do more, but in the cases you mentioned above, actually they do, do more, but what I was saying is taxes are for public services. You and I, and the Swiss are the public so that's where the money goes.

Basically if you want to change how the Swiss do business, then the best way is to actually go to that bakery and tell him your 2 cents. It's no problem you being here on the forum and working out how you want to say it. But it's not going to change anything either, right to or not to.
I am curious his reaction when you tell him the way they do business back home should mean something to him, as I am betting most of his customers aren't back where you are from. Maybe a different twist on the argument is advisable.
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Old 21.03.2012, 21:05
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This person got a Permit over another person because they aren't giving Permits to everyone, they are being selective, like every other country on this planet.

If we are going to talk about a democratic society, I will tell you this, only Passport holders have voting rights, end of discussion. There isn't a town hall meeting where the people that reside here are getting together, after you have been afforded so many rights to be here, to also address what you think of their rights to be at home with their families, and if they should give those rights/traditions up because some people can't get the sandwich before noon. Really can't see how that is going to happen(democratically).

And to respond to your Zealot remark...This is the 4th country I have lived in. And like you find me, I find people like you, always fresh off the boat, complaining about how the new country is not back home. And while I am still an American, and plan to be, I don't see until anyone puts down some sort of commitment, like change of passport for example, that we even know if that person will be here for another 6 months. If you are really willing to commit to one particular country, and show it by example, then complaining about the locals way of life is crap. Really.

I can see not liking it here. Not agreeing with it. But calling a host country's people backwards, and out of touch, non business wise, well it really means next to nothing to me other then insult.

This constant remark of some how foreigners are charged to be here, so they have the right to complain; I didn't see that tax on my form this year. Did I miss it? Oh you pay taxes...if you were here, and you were "there" you would pay taxes. What does that have to do with being a guest? You are a Guest in this country, until you own a Swiss passport.

Take it or leave it.

PS, how could I have been less audacious?
Haha, "fresh off the boat"!!

They don't restrict all forms of permit, just those to non-eu. Under freedom of movement, any holder of a European passport has the right to employment. So once employed, is not a guest - until a time when this agreement is changed.

Though as an American, you don't hold the same status - how did a self-professed non-eu chef get a permit, by the way?

And per chance, I do hold a Swiss passport; not that it makes a difference.
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Old 21.03.2012, 21:13
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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Haha, "fresh off the boat"!!

They don't restrict all forms of permit, just those to non-eu. Under freedom of movement, any holder of a European passport has the right to employment. So once employed, is not a guest - until a time when this agreement is changed.

Though as an American, you don't hold the same status - how did a self-professed non-eu chef get a permit, by the way?

And per chance, I do hold a Swiss passport; not that it makes a difference.
I can't say fresh off the boat?

Swiss passport holders should have more of a right to change their country then people staying here temporarily, or am I missing something?

My permit came in the form of a raffle. I was the big winner. It was either that or the Badminton set.
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Old 21.03.2012, 21:16
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Re: A Lunch Place Not Open AT LUNCH!!!!!!

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I can see not liking it here. Not agreeing with it. But calling a host country's people backwards, and out of touch, non business wise, well it really means next to nothing to me other then insult.
Ehmm, hypocrite much?

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well at my local Coop no one there speaks, alternatively, spanish, portugese, french, or ghetto slang, as opposed to english. Just good ole backwoods Swiss german...
How to complain to Coop central?


I must have taken my ginko that day...
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