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Old 24.03.2012, 07:22
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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ok but probably in 90% of cases the women earn less, Switzerland must be the only so called first world country that penalizes women who do not want to stay at home.... and before all the responses start ..... i stayed at home until my son was six but that was a choice that i made irrespective of financial reality ... but that is not a choice that many can or choose to make
Switzerland does not penalize women who work. The family is taxed as an economic unit. The incomes are added together and tax is calculated - if you're not on quellensteuer, or the money goes into a join account - it makes no difference who pays the tax. My wife works, we have seperate accounts, the tax comes out of mine. So I'm the one being "penalized".

Where countries tax individually that leads to further apparent anomalies. In the UK, if I earn £50K and my wife doesn't work, as an economic unit, we pay far more tax than if both earn £25K. We'd even qualify for family tax credits in the latter scenario. In this case, families with a non-working spouse are "penalized".

Of course, no-one is penalized under either system - they just work differently, to different effect. Only if you're used to one system and then move to the other do you suddenly feel hard-done by. Or in my case, where my wife didn't work, nicely benefitted.
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Old 24.03.2012, 10:34
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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How do you live in CH with a family for 60,000 CHF? We can't be talking about anywhere in Zurich, right?
Loads of families live on 60k even in canton Zurich. Just dont expect them to drive a new flashy car, eat out very much, or live in a house with a flashy garden. In France families manage on less than half, ok it is cheaper.
I think many people here are just so detached from reality with their huge salaries.
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Old 24.03.2012, 11:23
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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It's concidered bad form for a wife to work & is activly discouraged.
And that explains why the female workforce participation is consistently higher in Switzerland than in, let's say, the UK or the US.
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Old 24.03.2012, 11:28
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Loads of families live on 60k even in canton Zurich. Just dont expect them to drive a new flashy car, eat out very much, or live in a house with a flashy garden. In France families manage on less than half, ok it is cheaper.
I think many people here are just so detached from reality with their huge salaries.
Just for the record, I do not have a huge salary, no car and I my eating out consists of Brezelkönig once a week. I was just thinking it terms of rent (plus the deposit), groceries and basic household items. Bravo for those who can do it and raise a family in Zurich for 60,000 CHF. I need to learn their secrets or at least where they shop
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Old 24.03.2012, 12:06
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Just for the record, I do not have a huge salary, no car and I my eating out consists of Brezelkönig once a week. I was just thinking it terms of rent (plus the deposit), groceries and basic household items. Bravo for those who can do it and raise a family in Zurich for 60,000 CHF. I need to learn their secrets or at least where they shop
Almost certanly you are paying too much in rent, what is your monthly food bill?
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Old 24.03.2012, 12:39
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Just for the record, I do not have a huge salary, no car and I my eating out consists of Brezelkönig once a week. I was just thinking it terms of rent (plus the deposit), groceries and basic household items. Bravo for those who can do it and raise a family in Zurich for 60,000 CHF. I need to learn their secrets or at least where they shop
Try the Foods of the World Shopping Tour sometime ... it pops up every now and then in the Social Events section ... wander around the 'ethnic' shops out the back of Zurich HB, find where to get reasonably-priced food that is cheap in much of the world! I especially like the lamb from the Turkish shop ... and, of course, the bread ...
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Old 24.03.2012, 13:26
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Try the Foods of the World Shopping Tour sometime ... it pops up every now and then in the Social Events section ... wander around the 'ethnic' shops out the back of Zurich HB, find where to get reasonably-priced food that is cheap in much of the world! I especially like the lamb from the Turkish shop ... and, of course, the bread ...
Absolutely! Forum member Swisspea is the awesome organizer of these tours, and is a goldmine of information on the hot spots of cheap shopping in Zurich (aside from being a very lovely and nice person!). Josefstrasse in Kreis 5 is where you want to be, and also the Coop at Central, which closes Mon-Sat at 10pm, usually has lots of discounted items after 7-8pm.
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Old 26.03.2012, 10:09
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Absolutely! Forum member Swisspea is the awesome organizer of these tours, and is a goldmine of information on the hot spots of cheap shopping in Zurich (aside from being a very lovely and nice person!). Josefstrasse in Kreis 5 is where you want to be, and also the Coop at Central, which closes Mon-Sat at 10pm, usually has lots of discounted items after 7-8pm.
Speak of the devil ...

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Old 26.03.2012, 10:12
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

It's quite sad "women are expected to stay home and take care of children"... At least where I come from families with children are given tax breaks not asked to pay more taxes
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Old 26.03.2012, 10:20
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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It's quite sad "women are expected to stay home and take care of children"... At least where I come from families with children are given tax breaks not asked to pay more taxes

Same thing here. There is what is called the "marriage penalty" (where an unmarried couple fares better than a married one), but families (with kids) are given tax breaks. The whole thing boils down to the OP not really understanding the system.
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Old 26.03.2012, 12:06
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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It's quite sad "women are expected to stay home and take care of children"... At least where I come from families with children are given tax breaks not asked to pay more taxes
Oh, are you from Switzerland then...
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Old 26.03.2012, 12:25
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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And that explains why the female workforce participation is consistently higher in Switzerland than in, let's say, the UK or the US.
Well, yes and no. More women of childbearing age work (80.6%, vs. 74.4% of UK women and 70.2% of US women). However, the percentage of women working part time is higher in Switzerland (47.4% vs. 35.1% for the UK, 13.6% for the US) and more likely to have temporary employment (7% vs. 4.9% and 3.4% for the UK and US, respectively). As a result, fewer women in Switzerland make it into managerial positions (which presumably is a proxy for higher-paid positions) 21.2% vs. 34.4% and 36.7% for the UK and US, resp). Source: OECD (http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset...89264098732-en)

Also according to the OECD (some of the statistics here are slightly different, I believe owing to different years from which the numbers were taken):
“In Switzerland, 72% of women work, many of them part-time. By contrast, 85% of men work full-time. The lack of family-friendly policy and workplace support makes it very difficult for many Swiss parents, usually mothers, to combine work and family life…Switzerland’s female employment rate is high compared to the OECD average of 60%. However, 45% of all women work part-time, the second-highest rate across the OECD. For Swiss mothers with dependent children, that rate soars to almost 75%. A period of part-time work is good for reconciling work and family life, but working part-time on a long-term basis hinders career progression. Many Swiss women find it difficult to combine careers and children: at age 40, 40% of women with tertiary education are childless, and many families are having fewer children than they would like.”

As a full time working mother whose husband was asked to move the Kinderzulage from my paycheck to his, (well, she'll quit working soon, so there will be more paperwork), I can say that there is a bit of the old-fashioned attitude here, at least among the ETH secretarial pool.

However, I also agree though that the tax issue is from marriage, not children.
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Old 26.03.2012, 16:58
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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How do you live in CH with a family for 60,000 CHF? We can't be talking about anywhere in Zurich, right?
that would be about our combined taxable income, we live in ZH City and we get along just well

yes, taxes are unfair if you're married until you get kids, then deductions take over and taxes plummet..
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Old 26.03.2012, 17:05
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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The rational is that it's quite possible to live on 1 income & a wife is expected in a Catholic country to look after her children.
The rational must be something else, because Basel is protestant.

And it's not the woman being taxed more, as same sex partnered couples have the same even if there is no woman around.
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Old 26.03.2012, 18:47
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Well, yes and no. More women of childbearing age work (80.6%, vs. 74.4% of UK women and 70.2% of US women). However, the percentage of women working part time is higher in Switzerland (47.4% vs. 35.1% for the UK, 13.6% for the US) and more likely to have temporary employment (7% vs. 4.9% and 3.4% for the UK and US, respectively). As a result, fewer women in Switzerland make it into managerial positions (which presumably is a proxy for higher-paid positions) 21.2% vs. 34.4% and 36.7% for the UK and US, resp). Source: OECD (http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset...89264098732-en)

Also according to the OECD (some of the statistics here are slightly different, I believe owing to different years from which the numbers were taken):
“In Switzerland, 72% of women work, many of them part-time. By contrast, 85% of men work full-time. The lack of family-friendly policy and workplace support makes it very difficult for many Swiss parents, usually mothers, to combine work and family life…Switzerland’s female employment rate is high compared to the OECD average of 60%. However, 45% of all women work part-time, the second-highest rate across the OECD. For Swiss mothers with dependent children, that rate soars to almost 75%. A period of part-time work is good for reconciling work and family life, but working part-time on a long-term basis hinders career progression. Many Swiss women find it difficult to combine careers and children: at age 40, 40% of women with tertiary education are childless, and many families are having fewer children than they would like.”
I've never said that there is no problem. It is just that the argument that women in Switzerland do not/should not work is simply "worng".

The solutions (policies) to the actual problem, which you have described very well in your post, would look totally different than those we'd need if women were "simply" not "working."

I'd guess we can actually agree on that?
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As a full time working mother whose husband was asked to move the Kinderzulage from my paycheck to his, (well, she'll quit working soon, so there will be more paperwork), I can say that there is a bit of the old-fashioned attitude here, at least among the ETH secretarial pool.
Nah, there are rules (art. 7 of the federal law on "kinderzulagen" FamZG) which help to determine who gets the Kinderzulage if more than one person is eligible. Gender does not play a role.
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And it's not the woman being taxed more, as same sex partnered couples have the same even if there is no woman around.
QED
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Old 27.03.2012, 10:43
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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I've never said that there is no problem. It is just that the argument that women in Switzerland do not/should not work is simply "worng".

The solutions (policies) to the actual problem, which you have described very well in your post, would look totally different than those we'd need if women were "simply" not "working."

I'd guess we can actually agree on that?Nah, there are rules (art. 7 of the federal law on "kinderzulagen" FamZG) which help to determine who gets the Kinderzulage if more than one person is eligible. Gender does not play a role.

QED
Yes, women work, but I would suggest that the policies here (non-uniform, non-coordinated school days) combined with the the Swiss attitude that women really should be at home (and that we want to be at home) make it hard for women to pursue a career, rather than do some part-time low-responsibility work (which is what the statistics suggest, but do not prove). Given that the level of education for women is quite high, and that University is a relatively low financial burden, the OECD and I agree that Switzerland has contradictory policies toward empowering women. Here, get a free PhD, but good luck using it once you have kids!

As for the rules on Kinderzulagen, the secretary was just trying be helpful, since with two kids, I'd surely be quitting soon. I did not imply that she was following any rule other than her own sense of what was right.
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Old 27.03.2012, 11:38
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Yes, women work, but I would suggest that the policies here (non-uniform, non-coordinated school days) combined with the the Swiss attitude that women really should be at home (and that we want to be at home) make it hard for women to pursue a career, rather than do some part-time low-responsibility work (which is what the statistics suggest, but do not prove). Given that the level of education for women is quite high, and that University is a relatively low financial burden, the OECD and I agree that Switzerland has contradictory policies toward empowering women. Here, get a free PhD, but good luck using it once you have kids!.
I sense that you disagree with me, but I just don't understand why? I never said anything different.

My point is that you if you want to change a situation, you need a definition of the problem that is grounded on facts (the one you gave above) and not on fiction (swiss women do not work).


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As for the rules on Kinderzulagen, the secretary was just trying be helpful, since with two kids, I'd surely be quitting soon. I did not imply that she was following any rule other than her own sense of what was right.
I do hope she was following a rule, as the law is extremely clear (and not sexist).
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Old 27.03.2012, 12:03
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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I sense that you disagree with me, but I just don't understand why? I never said anything different.

My point is that you if you want to change a situation, you need a definition of the problem that is grounded on facts (the one you gave above) and not on fiction (swiss women do not work).




I do hope she was following a rule, as the law is extremely clear (and not sexist).
Yes, we basically agree. My only point is that Swiss women may "work," but it is not a "career." So, while the Swiss brag that so many women are in the workforce, the question is whether these women are achieving their full potential in the workforce or just doing a bit for pocket money. And, in my experience, the Swiss culture (at least with the elder crowd) is that a career and motherhood don't mix.

So, I'd say that "Swiss women don't work" is untrue, but "Swiss women don't pursue careers" may very well be true (though more difficult to suss out with statistics). Many people equate "work" with "fulfilling work" or "career."

And again, I was clear that she was following no rules except what she thought was the easiest (less paperwork for her).

Sorry, I'm trying to be clear, not argumentative.
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Old 27.03.2012, 13:29
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

Thanks for the constructive discussion, at least we could move from the typical uninformed rant from someone who doesn't understand the system to a well informed discussion, thanks for the OECD figures swiss_in_training.
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Old 27.03.2012, 13:42
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Thanks for the constructive discussion, at least we could move from the typical uninformed rant from someone who doesn't understand the system to a well informed discussion, thanks for the OECD figures swiss_in_training.
As the OP here-
As it stands, I am getting taxed more, solely based on my gender. For Quellensteuer, it does not matter who makes more in the couple, what your combined income is, etc. If you are a woman, you get taxed more, period.
Link to the rates is here: (page 36 compared to page 39)
http://www.steuerverwaltung.bs.ch/19...und_tarife.pdf
This was my rant. It had nothing to do with if women should stay home or not, just that I feel like I should not be taxed more based on gender.
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