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  #41  
Old 27.03.2012, 13:51
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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It's only because you got married, if you lived together you would pay the same tax. The rational is that it's quite possible to live on 1 income & a wife is expected in a Catholic country to look after her children.
Just because you live in a catholic canton doesn't mean that Switzerland is a catholic country. Only about have of the population is catholic and many cantons are not catholic.
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  #42  
Old 27.03.2012, 13:53
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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As the OP here-
As it stands, I am getting taxed more, solely based on my gender.
No. You are being taxed more based on your gender and your marital status.

I can think of a few changes that might help.

1. The person who pays tax of the top slice should be freely choosable. Seems ok, but I can't see the Swiss going for it, on the basis that it makes no difference to overall household bill.

2. Adjusting the tax rates of both to compensate. Overly complicated since it would vary according to both incomes, cost more to implement, and so result in tax rises for everyone, so that would be a bad idea.

But why rely on the system to fix this gross injustice? The simple solution is for your husband to give you a few hundred chf each year to offset the extra tax you've paid. That way you each have the same income after tax, and the problem is solved.
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  #43  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:20
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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My only point is that Swiss women may "work," but it is not a "career." So, while the Swiss brag that so many women are in the workforce, the question is whether these women are achieving their full potential in the workforce or just doing a bit for pocket money. And, in my experience, the Swiss culture (at least with the elder crowd) is that a career and motherhood don't mix.

So, I'd say that "Swiss women don't work" is untrue, but "Swiss women don't pursue careers" may very well be true (though more difficult to suss out with statistics). Many people equate "work" with "fulfilling work" or "career."
What many people on here don't see or don't understand is that many Swiss women DO NOT WANT to work full time once they have kids. Yes they want to have a nice job which fulfills them but most women I know and especially most mothers don't want to work full time and a to pursue a career that involves endless days at work or work in the evening / at the weekend.

While you may see the Swiss system as old-fashioned, we grew up with that system and many would like to be there for the children when they get home from school like our mum was when we were little. So just because it's not what you're used to this does not mean that the Swiss system is "wrong". It's just different! It might not suit you but many Swiss are not that unhappy with the system. Yes some improvements might be nice (and believe me a lot has improved in that area since I was little) most women are happy to spend time with their kids. I know I don't want to work full-time once I have kids and as stated before many of my (female) friends agree with me.
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  #44  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:26
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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"Swiss women don't pursue careers"
Nor do I.

Tom
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  #45  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:40
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

Men can also be taxed based solely on their gender. There's always two sides to every story. However, it seems that perhaps the male gender just accepts it. Many professionals would argue that it's because past society has defined the male's role as the family provider. They must accept the role and responsibilities to ensure their family had food and shelter and haven't always had the time luxury to fight gender inequalities for their favor.

I don't agree with how this is, but it is what it is.
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  #46  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:01
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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No. You are being taxed more based on your gender and your marital status.
That's splitting hairs. A married man and a married woman are taxed differently (in canton Basel Stadt and canton Zurich at least, didn't check other cantons). In either case, for the same salary, the woman pays a higher tax rate. Dependent children (if any) will only ever lower the husband's tax rate. That assumes that the husband earns more, and leaves no remedy in case he doesn't. Zurich tax office condescendingly decscribes the wife as "mitverdienend" in the official tax table.

This is daft to the point where, if I (currently stay-at-home dad) were to start working part-time, earning, say CHF 2'000/month, my wife's tax rate would jump by several percentage points, not only because we'd both earn (that's the first couple of percentage points), but because she is the "wife" and not the "husband". As a result, we'd be worse off with me earning.

How is that not gender discrimination?

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But why rely on the system to fix this gross injustice? The simple solution is for your husband to give you a few hundred chf each year to offset the extra tax you've paid. That way you each have the same income after tax, and the problem is solved.
Ah, I see, so the Big Spender can come home and distribute the goodies to wifey.
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  #47  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:39
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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A married man and a married woman are taxed differently
Only if taxed at source.

Tom
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:13
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

IIRC

If you are taxed at source and married. The person flagged a the primary earner (usually the man) will be taxed on his salary exactly if that was the total family income. IE Allowances taken out for marriage and children.

The second salary will then be taxed from that starting point. IE no allowances and higher per 1000chf rates.
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:17
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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The person flagged a the primary earner (usually the man)
Er, no, it's not the person flagged as the primary earner. That would be progressive and sensible. IT IS THE HUSBAND, no matter who the primary earner is.

And yes, that's the "at source" tax rates. How does that make it better? Because it only applies to foreigners (not on C permits and not married to a Swiss person)?
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:21
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Er, no, it's not the person flagged as the primary earner. That would be progressive and sensible. IT IS THE HUSBAND, no matter who the primary earner is.

And yes, that's the "at source" tax rates. How does that make it better? Because it only applies to foreigners (not on C permits and not married to a Swiss person)?
It doesn't make it better/worse - it explains the situation. Either way - once the salary goes over 120k you can ask to do a tax return.

Furthermore, if you are married and living in a "separate account" way -then you can do the maths yourselves and work out how much the husband should pay the wife.
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:37
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

Having checked this out and spoken to key money movers in the city and respected financial experts involved in Swiss Monetary Law and taxation issues, they have all reached the same conclusion.

The additional tax due by women is because of the benefits associated with owning a vagina.

No, really ...
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Old 27.03.2012, 17:48
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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The additional tax due by women is because of the benefits associated with owning a vagina.
Does that go under Eigentumsteuer or Vermögensteuer?
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  #53  
Old 27.03.2012, 18:42
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Does that go under Eigentumsteuer or Vermögensteuer?
"Eigenmietwert" seems more logical to me...
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  #54  
Old 27.03.2012, 19:07
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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That's splitting hairs. A married man and a married woman are taxed differently (in canton Basel Stadt and canton Zurich at least, didn't check other cantons). In either case, for the same salary, the woman pays a higher tax rate. Dependent children (if any) will only ever lower the husband's tax rate. That assumes that the husband earns more, and leaves no remedy in case he doesn't. Zurich tax office condescendingly decscribes the wife as "mitverdienend" in the official tax table.

This is daft to the point where, if I (currently stay-at-home dad) were to start working part-time, earning, say CHF 2'000/month, my wife's tax rate would jump by several percentage points, not only because we'd both earn (that's the first couple of percentage points), but because she is the "wife" and not the "husband". As a result, we'd be worse off with me earning.
That is not 100% correct. That is the default option. However, if your wife earns the major part of the familiy income, you can switch (in Zürich, I did not check for Basel-Stadt).
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Old 27.03.2012, 19:07
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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Having checked this out and spoken to key money movers in the city and respected financial experts involved in Swiss Monetary Law and taxation issues, they have all reached the same conclusion.

The additional tax due by women is because of the benefits associated with owning a vagina.

No, really ...
Multiple orgasms are getting expensive.

Edit: But to be fair, I should add that men often pay a lot more to get just one. ;p

Last edited by little_isabella; 27.03.2012 at 20:23.
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Old 27.03.2012, 20:48
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

To split hairs even more, the Swiss tax system can be perceived as unfair to married women who work, and whose husbands work, and who have tax deducted at source.

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...
Ah, I see, so the Big Spender can come home and distribute the goodies to wifey.
Ah - assuming misogyny. How very non-judgmental of you.

The thing is, my wife and I talk about our money and income. We're not on quellensteuer anymore, so the issue is moot to us, but when we were and she started working, she opened up an account for her earnings that she could access as she likes. I do not have an account of my own; we share the main one, that we both have full access to. I assume this inequality is ok?

Given that she earned far less than me, it seemed to us a bit daft that her income was deducted at such a high rate, so she and I together, so there's no patronising going on, agreed on a pragmatic approach. The amount that I'd get deducted if the calculation was the other way round was paid each month into her account.

The family as a whole will pay the same amount of tax regardless of who gets the deductions. If you pool all your assets, it just doesn't matter who earns what. And if you don't pool all your assets, you can work it all out just as we did. No government interference, no benevolent husband passing out the housekeeping to poor wifey - just a sensible way of dealing with the way the Swiss tax system works.

Now we're not on quellensteuer it's even easier. All the tax gets paid out of my income!

I'd be interested to learn how other couples outside of quellensteuer split up their tax bills. It's not something I'd thought about before.
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Old 27.03.2012, 23:53
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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I'd be interested to learn how other couples outside of quellensteuer split up their tax bills. It's not something I'd thought about before.
All money into one account and all bills paid out of it. Once you have kids it all gets spent on them anyway...
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Old 28.03.2012, 00:07
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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I'd be interested to learn how other couples outside of quellensteuer split up their tax bills. It's not something I'd thought about before.
I agree with you NAT, but married couple finances always seem to be a controversial point and I cannot for the life of me work out why. Because if partnership/living with someone/marriage isn't about sharing, (however each couple arranges that sharing) what is it about?

We have a joint account into which husband's salary is paid.

Now I do a small part time job and my earnings go into a "little account" which I use to buy treats for the family/children and the occasional night away or (last month) eldest son's birthday party. We account for our joint earnings on our tax form and the taxes go out of our main joint account.

We have been together for 20 years, had two children, moved house 5 times, are now dealing with bringing up a disabled child. Why on earth would a little matter like where do we get the money to pay yet another bill (because that's all it is after all - just another bill to be paid) be an issue? So very much bigger things in life.
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Old 28.03.2012, 15:50
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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What many people on here don't see or don't understand is that many Swiss women DO NOT WANT to work full time once they have kids. Yes they want to have a nice job which fulfills them but most women I know and especially most mothers don't want to work full time and a to pursue a career that involves endless days at work or work in the evening / at the weekend.

While you may see the Swiss system as old-fashioned, we grew up with that system and many would like to be there for the children when they get home from school like our mum was when we were little. So just because it's not what you're used to this does not mean that the Swiss system is "wrong". It's just different! It might not suit you but many Swiss are not that unhappy with the system. Yes some improvements might be nice (and believe me a lot has improved in that area since I was little) most women are happy to spend time with their kids. I know I don't want to work full-time once I have kids and as stated before many of my (female) friends agree with me.
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What many people on here don't see or don't understand is that many Swiss women DO NOT WANT to work full time once they have kids. Yes they want to have a nice job which fulfills them but most women I know and especially most mothers don't want to work full time and a to pursue a career that involves endless days at work or work in the evening / at the weekend.

While you may see the Swiss system as old-fashioned, we grew up with that system and many would like to be there for the children when they get home from school like our mum was when we were little. So just because it's not what you're used to this does not mean that the Swiss system is "wrong". It's just different! It might not suit you but many Swiss are not that unhappy with the system. Yes some improvements might be nice (and believe me a lot has improved in that area since I was little) most women are happy to spend time with their kids. I know I don't want to work full-time once I have kids and as stated before many of my (female) friends agree with me.
Okay, I'd normally not respond, since I think this is on the verge of silly, but I do want to be clear and not have my words misinterpreted.

The Swiss system may not be "wrong," but it is not serving the Swiss women as well as it might. Perhaps anecdotally, your friends are "not that unhappy." Statistically, however, a good proportion of women here are apparently torn between career and family.

From the OECD: "Many Swiss women find it difficult to combine careers and children: at age 40, 40% of women with tertiary education are childless, and many families are having fewer children than they would like."

As a woman nearing 40 who has two (Swiss) kids and a PhD, the difficulty that is spelled out here resonates very strongly with me. By the way, I do not work endless days or weekends, so let's not pretend that a normal 42 hour work week is incompatible with a career.

As a country that educates women very well (tertiary degrees for women are above the OECD average, with the trend being more higher education for women), Switzerland also should (logically as well as morally) accommodate the choices of all women. This includes women like you, who don't want to work full time after having children, and women like me, who do. From a societal standpoint, it is detrimental to both the workforce and population growth to limit choice (by either gender, btw). From a personal standpoint, it is not up to Switzerland (or to me, or you) to define how responsible and loving parents should raise their own children.
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Old 28.03.2012, 16:00
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Re: Swiss taxes are unfair to women.

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I'd be interested to learn how other couples outside of quellensteuer split up their tax bills. It's not something I'd thought about before.
My husband drew up a budget, which we both agreed upon, in which one person is responsible for a subset of bills and savings categories (rent, day care, various insurances and utilities, savings, travel budget, etc.), the other for the others. We have separate accounts and how we spend our discretionary funds remains our own business. We show our bank balances to each other every 6 months and go through the budget, just to make sure we're on target for our savings and don't need to make adjustments, and otherwise, we have complete autonomy.

We haven't had a single fight over money since.

I think this works really well for couples in which both work, but even if one person makes a lot more than the other, then he or she would just have a larger proportion of the fixed expenses to pay. It probably doesn't work if you don't really trust your spouse
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