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Old 18.04.2012, 14:40
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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A few years back I attended a lecture by a very Senior Jesuit Priest, a specialist translator from Hebrew. He explained very clearly that the Adam and Eve story, as male being led into temptation and sin by female, is a fairly recent introduction. The original Hebrew never mentioned man and woman at all, but two different words for man/humanity. There was indeed a deliberate movement to discredit women by the early Catholic Church which still lives to this day.
Actually, Judaism isn't a closed monolithic structure but there are differing interpretaions that can be found in history.

Some interpretations rejected the existence of evil as an entity to itself but ascribed evil to an absence of good, just as darkness is not an entity in its own right but is only an absence of light, or vacuum is an absence of matter.

Interpreting the Adam and Eve story in this light puts the serpent in a totally different light, putting it more in the "shit happens" category than a specific satanic intervention. Some versions of the story associate the serpent with Lilith (who some claim was Adam's first wife before he met Eve), and see her becoming a snake to seek revenge. In this light the meaning of the story is a totally different one.

Linguistic analysis of the Adam and Eve story show it is of a different age (younger) than the seven days creation story (in which Satan does not appear).

When looking at such conjectures, one should be careful not to draw false conclusions, as the existence of alternative versions does not prove which version was first. So this does not at all prove the Christian or modern Jewish version has been adultered. It could be the alternative version was adultered and then rejected, with the original surviving.
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Old 18.04.2012, 14:43
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Not exactly the same thing as this is a specific case rather than a rule but the polytheistic religions were&are incredibly blood thirsty / bit of the ol regular human sacrifice. It's incredibly ignorant to suggest that all religions are all about peace - in fact any student of Roman history would tell you that Christianity was initially feared in Rome precisely BECAUSE it was so peaceful and incompatible with the principles on which Rome (a war state) was founded.
Religion is one thing, what people do with it is an other thing. So yes, the idea behind it is about peace.

But again, you have an agenda, so I'll sit back and watch you doing it.
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Old 18.04.2012, 14:47
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Atheists will never have a unified moral standard in the way that you mean. If atheists start assembling, writing down specific rules, following a ''leader'' of some sort, then it's dangerously close to a religion in itself!
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Atheism is not about doing whatever you want. It's about being able to think and feel whatever you want - to question whatever you want, to study whatever you want, to believe in whatever you want after reviewing all the facts from all possible directions.
So long as you come to the conclusion that there is no God, right?

As a personal inclination and disposition, I don't have a problem with this at all. When some take this and turn it into a social movement, one can justifiably ask, what have you got to offer? When I see that all it really does is deride people who hold on to their religious or spiritual beliefs, then I get the impression it is merely a fringe group of trolls. I'm sure this is similar to how you might perceive a religious person who proselytizes. We do see atheists proselytizing, which seems anathema to what atheism supposedly stand for.
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  #244  
Old 18.04.2012, 14:49
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Religion is one thing, what people do with it is an other thing. So yes, the idea behind it is about peace.

But again, you have an agenda, so I'll sit back and watch you doing it.
Huh ? That's a completely different point to what you made before :

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Because in every religions, it is about believing in something bigger and better, every religion talk about peace and no violence. It is forbidden to kill and commit sins which would hurt someone.
which is factually inaccurate. You can groan as much as you wish and remain ignorant of those from example Ancient Mesopotamia but you'll still be preaching (as usual) from ignorance.
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  #245  
Old 18.04.2012, 14:51
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Huh ? That's a completely different point to what you made before :



which is factually inaccurate. You can groan as much as you wish and remain ignorant of those from example Ancient Mesopotamia but you'll still be preaching (as usual) from ignorance.
Well, I think you are the one who looks ignorant here. Again your agenda, again me ignoring you. You hate my religion, we all know that in here. You made it pretty clear. I won't feed you more.
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  #246  
Old 18.04.2012, 14:54
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Well, I think you are the one who looks ignorant here. Again your agenda, again me ignoring you.
Um yip.
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You hate my religion, we all know that in here. You made it pretty clear. I won't feed you more.
I neither hate you nor your religion - although you make some daft posts.

EDIT: What facts am I being ignorant of ? Please tell me.
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  #247  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:10
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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So long as you come to the conclusion that there is no God, right?
That's not a conclusion based on the free thinking that atheism allows, but rather the starting point to allow that freedom of thought to occur in the first place.

You still seem to be having trouble with the whole meaning of atheism, which is the belief that there is no possible way that any sort of supernatural or divine entity can exist. In this context, the 'conclusion' you infer is completely meaningless.

Oh, and as for 'proselytising', well yes, there's a certain level of that, but in no way would it be, as you claim, 'anathema to what atheism supposedly stand for', as atheism doesn't stand for anything in particular.
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  #248  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:10
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Nor an atheist is better than a believer.

Seems pretty obvious to me.
Does not seem obvious to your religious friends though.

Are you not the lady who does not want to save any paedophile from death? How do you justify following a religion where the founder, a perfect man of God had sex with a 6 or maybe 9 year old child? Would love to hear your rational there So I would say you are ignorant and not Parnell. Keep your eyes shut but don't expect Atheists to shut their eyes too just out of respect for ignorant religions and their ignorant books.
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  #249  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:11
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Not sad just an opinion of mine
You misunderstood, I wasn't referring to you, but to people who thought like you described, I more or less agree with you.
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  #250  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:14
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Does not seem obvious to your religious friends though.

Are you not the lady who does not want to save any paedophile from death? How do you justify following a religion where the founder, a perfect man of God had sex with a 6 or maybe 9 year old child? Would love to hear your rational there So I would say you are ignorant and not Parnell. Keep your eyes shut but don't expect Atheists to shut their eyes too just out of respect for ignorant religions and their ignorant books.
First, I am not a believer, second I wouldn't save a pedo if my life was at risk and third, prove me that Mohammad had sex with 6-9 years old child.

I call bullshit.
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  #251  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:26
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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That's not a conclusion based on the free thinking that atheism allows, but rather the starting point to allow that freedom of thought to occur in the first place.

You still seem to be having trouble with the whole meaning of atheism, which is the belief that there is no possible way that any sort of supernatural or divine entity can exist. In this context, the 'conclusion' you infer is completely meaningless.

Oh, and as for 'proselytising', well yes, there's a certain level of that, but in no way would it be, as you claim, 'anathema to what atheism supposedly stand for', as atheism doesn't stand for anything in particular.

Are you saying Atheism is a special kind of thinking that is not possible without denying the existence of God? But this "freedom" you claim is really more a limitation of thinking.

And as for meaning, given that atheism cannot even offer an objective moral standard, what good is it for the breadth of humanity? The world does not stop at one's forehead. What does it say of society? I find it irresponsible to proselytize for it when it fails on so many levels.


My favorite atheist joke:

Q: What do you get when you cross a Jehova's Witness and an Atheist.

A: Someone who rings your doorbell for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
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  #252  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:30
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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My favorite atheist joke:

Q: What do you get when you cross a Jehova's Witness and an Atheist.

A: Someone who rings your doorbell for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
This one sums up religion in the U.S.:

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
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  #253  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:30
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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First, I am not a believer, second I wouldn't save a pedo if my life was at risk and third, prove me that Mohammad had sex with 6-9 years old child.

I call bullshit.
This is pretty common knowledge.

"Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[6][8][9][11][12][13] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[8]"

Married at 6, consummated at 9 or 10.
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  #254  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:30
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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My favorite atheist joke:

Q: What do you get when you cross a Jehova's Witness and an Atheist.

A: Someone who rings your doorbell for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
Q: What do you get when you cross an insomniac, a dyslexic, and an agnostic?

A: Someone who lies awake at night wondering whether there really is a dog.
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  #255  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:34
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Are you saying Atheism is a special kind of thinking that is not possible without denying the existence of God?
Again with the denying. There's nothing to deny.
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And as for meaning, given that atheism cannot even offer an objective moral standard, what good is it for the breadth of humanity?
Who said anything about it being good for society? If you think it's being pushed as an alternative religion I think you're somewhat mistaken.

Although now that you suggest it, I suppose one could argue that ceasing to believe in mythical beings that control our destiny might not be such a bad thing for society as a whole...
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  #256  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:35
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Although now that you suggest it, I suppose one could argue that ceasing to believe in mythical beings that control our destiny might not be such a bad thing for society as a whole...
You take my Santa Claus away from me over my dead body.
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  #257  
Old 18.04.2012, 15:37
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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This is pretty common knowledge.

"Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated.[6][8][9][11][12][13] Most of the sources indicate that she was nine years old at the time, with the single exception of al-Tabari, who records that she was ten.[8]"

Married at 6, consummated at 9 or 10.
True.

They also said Maria was a virgin when she gave birth of Jesus and Jesus never got married nor had kids. They also said they were no women Apostles.
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Old 18.04.2012, 15:40
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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True.

They also said Maria was a virgin when she gave birth of Jesus and Jesus never got married nor had kids. They also said they were no women Apostles.
It was pretty common in Bedouin societies at the time so it's not out of the realm of possibility, and there are plenty of sources. But keep blinders on and shut your ears going "lalalala" if you wish, since you obviously knew the guy.

Moral relativism, ain't it a B.
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Old 18.04.2012, 15:42
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Are you saying Atheism is a special kind of thinking that is not possible without denying the existence of God? But this "freedom" you claim is really more a limitation of thinking.
I don't think so, I would say that the limitations in thinking as you describe, are more like nervous ticks, things you do that have no reason whatsoever. Atheist thinking does not require "denying" god, it really isn't in the equation. More often that not, I would say having a catch all term like "god" is a limitation in thinking, any difficult problem can be solved by it's application, it's a magic constant.

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And as for meaning, given that atheism cannot even offer an objective moral standard, what good is it for the breadth of humanity? The world does not stop at one's forehead. What does it say of society? I find it irresponsible to proselytize for it when it fails on so many levels.
I've yet to see a religion with the objective moral standards they claim, and many people turn away from religion not to become immoral as put earlier, but because they see the absolute morals of the religion to be immoral. That it causes more suffering for no other reason than to appease supposed absolute moral guardians.
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Old 18.04.2012, 15:44
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

The Christianity I know is about unmerited mercy. It's got nothing to do with being good or bad, though there is an emphasis of, as one continues in the faith, of becoming more Christ-like, and a failure to do so is an indication of a problem. Like what Jesus said - you'll know them by their fruit, which is usually understood to be the fruit of the Spirit - love, long-suffering, gentleness, self-control etc.

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A few years back I attended a lecture by a very Senior Jesuit Priest, a specialist translator from Hebrew. He explained very clearly that the Adam and Eve story, as male being led into temptation and sin by female, is a fairly recent introduction. The original Hebrew never mentioned man and woman at all, but two different words for man/humanity. There was indeed a deliberate movement to discredit women by the early Catholic Church which still lives to this day.
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I don't buy that for a minute, and neither would any Hebrew scholar worth his salt. The 'fairly recent introduction' would have to have convinced not just Catholic scholars, but all Hebrew scholars to abandon centuries-old manuscripts. I'd have asked the guy for an explanation of how that came about. Sounds like yet another priest spinning yarns, from where I sit.
Probably comes from Wellhausen's documentary hypothesis, that the pentateuch was in fact from four sources. The accounts of the creation in genesis 1 and 2-3 coming from two of them. But even the latest of those is dated an early than a few hundred BCE. Not a chance it was an early Catholic church plot.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm studying theology - specifically the Old Testament, and one point of focus being Genesis 1-11 - right now, through Heythrop College London which has a few Jesuits on faculty. I've not come across the above theory, so even if this guy was "senior", his ideas haven't made a dent in what's being taught at the moment, and isn't mentioned in any of the books or papers I've read.

So, Odile - did this senior Jesuit have a name so I can identify who he his and what he actually said, and what the response of other scholars was? Or is this just a dubious "appeal to authority" argument?
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