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Old 18.04.2012, 17:46
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

The business of excommunicating sinners is contradictory to the whole point of forgiveness for sinners.

I can understand when someone brings disunity in a church that threatens to split it that excommunication would be appropriate. But for mistakes people make.... well, that is unforgiving.
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Old 18.04.2012, 17:49
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I don't think anybody in the Church promotes a pick and mix attitude. Where it is found, it is often through misunderstanding, combined with nobody wanting to argue it out to the bitter end (or nobody really caring), and preferring to live and let live. But one shouldn't confuse what is tolerated with what is official teaching.
No misunderstanding. The church does not promote blind faith. We were all born with a conscience and a will. In the end, we decide how to be a Catholic without being untrue to ourselves.
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Old 18.04.2012, 17:50
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The business of excommunicating sinners is contradictory to the whole point of forgiveness for sinners.

I can understand when someone brings disunity in a church that threatens to split it that excommunication would be appropriate. But for mistakes people make.... well, that is unforgiving.
It's also judgemental and goes against Christ's teaching to love one another. It's the dastardly human element of ego and fear that overrides love, forgiveness and acceptance.
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  #304  
Old 18.04.2012, 17:53
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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It's also judgemental and goes against Christ's teaching to love one another. It's the dastardly human element of ego and fear that overrides love, forgiveness and acceptance.
It's one of the reasons why I avoid so many churches.

Probably also the reason why some have thrown the baby out of the bathwater and say that God does not exist.
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Old 18.04.2012, 17:53
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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No, not at all. I was just being considerate to Oly's thread.

You need to differentiate how people interpret what they think the Bible states, and what is actually written in it. Also, what the intent of the word says, and even who said what within the Bible.

Oftentimes, a person or a church's reading of it can be quite off the mark. Churches and people are subject to mistakes. But there is considerable leeway on making genuine mistakes in the Kingdom. We aren't there because we are perfect. We're there because we are imperfect.

The process of questioning is important. It fine-tune's one's reading of it.
So that would mean that your freedom of intellect and inquiry is limited to questioning interpretation? If science says something that can't fit a reinterpretation of the wording in the bible, then the science is wrong? Sounds like a limitation to me.

I'll admit I have not read much of the bible at all, so I have no idea how vague it is. I guess if it is vague enough then reinterpretation of the teachings may not be very limiting.
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Old 18.04.2012, 17:55
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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So that would mean that your freedom of intellect and inquiry is limited to questioning interpretation? If science says something that can't fit a reinterpretation of the wording in the bible, then the science is wrong? Sounds like a limitation to me.

I'll admit I have not read much of the bible at all, so I have no idea how vague it is. I guess if it is vague enough then reinterpretation of the teachings may not be very limiting.
You'll have to point out something specific for my response to that question.
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  #307  
Old 18.04.2012, 18:03
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

To bring something more constructive to this discussion. I think both non-believers and catholics should be annoyed at this. Non-believers are obviously not happy with the priest saying ''mess with god and he's going to drown you and keep you at the bottom of an ocean forever.''

I think catholics should be also annoyed by this because of the damage it does to his credibility. Christian faith is based on the bible which includes some highly unlikely events. Now if the messenger of the bible says as fact that god sunk the titanic and killed over a thousend people because some shipbuilder provoked him and this is proven to be false how seriously are they going to take the stories in the bible like having Jesus walking on water, seas being separated etc....? They don't really sound that much more likely to happen.
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  #308  
Old 18.04.2012, 18:14
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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You'll have to point out something specific for my response to that question.
Bringing in specifics would divert you from answering the question of whether or not your freedom of intellect and inquiry is limited by the word of your god, as we'd discuss the merit of the disagreement rather than the initial question, and I'd prefer that not to happen. An impasse I fear.
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:16
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Bringing in specifics would divert you from answering the question of whether or not your freedom of intellect and inquiry is limited by the word of your god, as we'd discuss the merit of the disagreement rather than the initial question, and I'd prefer that not to happen. An impasse I fear.
Then the only thing I can tell you is that you would need to examine the issue. You would check the interpretation and the premises of both sides of the issue. Its not far from scientific.

By the way, could you or anyone else tell me about this super atheist thinking prowess that allows you to think in ways believers cannot? Do you have an example?
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  #310  
Old 18.04.2012, 18:21
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Her life and marriage are well documented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha , I find few sources that say "exactly the opposite". You don't appear to have much of a point besides "I refuse to believe this". It's not a comfortable thing to learn about someone you admire and perfectly understandable.

M.Emin. Yildirim/ Vakit (translated/edited by Selimhan)


Aisha was 17-18 yrs old at the time of marriage to Muhammad

A few basic info before we go into age calculations based on bits and pieces of indirect information we now have:

a) Most of the information on the life of Muhammad comes from the collection of Hadith, which is the meticulous recording of every aspect of his life by his friends. Hadith was narrated through about 2 generations, and then written down. Thus, the Hadith should be interpreted with regards to the observers and narrators level of trustworthiness, knowledge, alertness and education.

b) Arabs started paying attention to time and calendar only after Islam, and did not have proper records before Islam. There was an explosion of record keeping after Islam, especially after Hijrah (Muhammad’s the migration to Madina), which is year 0 in islamic calendar.

Below are some facts that should be used to interpred some Hadith that puts Aisha’s age at 9yrs old during marriage to Muhammad:




1 – 4 years before Aisha married Muhammad, she was engaged to Adiyy'in Cübeyr, the son of a wealthy Meccan merchant Mut'im. Mut’im (father of Adiyy) being a non-believer, throw away the engagement ring saying: “ no believer of Muhammad can enter my household”. This also indicates that at the time of Aisha was a muslim. Saying Aisha was 9 yrs old when Married to Muhammad would put her age at less than 5 during engagement with Adiyy, which is absurd.

2 – Polytheist Arabs had the tradition of not counting the ages of their daughters before they became adolescents (Before Islam, many were buried alive before they reached puberty anyway). When the girls reached puberty, they would throw a party at Dar’un Nadwe and announce that their daughters were available for marriage. Hadith’s indicating 9 yr old theory should be interpreted with this bit of information (which would put her age around [9+ time to puberty] yrs old during marriage)


3- Aisha was the greatest Islamic jurist-scholar of her time and was blessed with a prolific memory. When asked about the date of when Sura Kiyamah ( a chapter from Kur’an) was revealed, she said: “ when I was a child playing in the streets of Mecca”. This puts her anywhere form 5-13 yrs old at that time. We know from other sources that this chapter was revealed 4 yrs after Muhammad received the first chapters of Kur’an. Aisha has married Muhammad 13th years after the first verse of Kur’an was revealed (when he was 53). This puts Aisha’s age anywhere between 14-22 during marriage.

4. Many sources indicate that Aihsa was 10 yrs younger then her sister Esma. Esma died at the 73rd year after Hijrah, and was 27-28 yrs old during Hijrah. The simple calculation puts Aisha’s age during marriage to around 17-18 during marriage (right after Hijrah).

5. Aisha died around yr 58 after Hijrah at age 74-75, stayed married with Muhammad for exactly 9 yrs, and lived exactly 48yrs as a widow after the death of Muhammad. This put her age during marriage to around 17-18.

Another point is, Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha was never made a point of argument either by his followers nor his enemies with regards to her age. This shows that the time of marriage was acceptable within the standards and culture of that time. They lived an exemplary life of husband and wife…
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:22
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The Catholic church has made it easy for us to "pick and mix".
I think it depends a lot of the attitude of your priest - as I said I had 2 uncles who were priests.

What I have a problem with is that in the "Creed" which is a prayer in mass- one line is

" I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church"

So that is not giving you a choice in my mind-

My husband is not a Catholic but one priest we had was quite insistent that he took Holy Communion - as he had been in a Catholic Church - that decision would have been heavily criticised by most other priests..
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:25
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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By the way, could you or anyone else tell me about this super atheist thinking prowess that allows you to think in ways believers cannot? Do you have an example?

It's not that they can't, it's that they won't, and are discouraged from it. I don't think there's many atheists who claim the sort of supernatural insight believers do.

Summed up, I always thought of it as curiosity, why do I really think what I think, am I right? Why not check?
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:26
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I think it depends a lot of the attitude of your priest - as I said I had 2 uncles who were priests.

What I have a problem with is that in the "Creed" which is a prayer in mass- one line is

" I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church"

So that is not giving you a choice in my mind-

My husband is not a Catholic but one priest we had was quite insistent that he took Holy Communion - as he had been in a Catholic Church - that decision would have been heavily criticised by most other priests..
Actually, it's:

" I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church"

Small-c catholic, as in universal.

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Old 18.04.2012, 18:32
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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" I believe in one Holy Catholic and apostolic church"

So that is not giving you a choice in my mind-
Well, if you don't believe the church is holy and you don't believe it has followers, then one wonders what you are doing insinde the church reciting the Crede.
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:33
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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It's not that they can't, it's that they won't, and are discouraged from it. I don't think there's many atheists who claim the sort of supernatural insight believers do.

Summed up, I always thought of it as curiosity, why do I really think what I think, am I right? Why not check?
Epistemology

We practice it too. And there are times we aren't thinking about God. We're focused on the subject matter at hand. There are Christians working in the fields of Science, even evolution, I suppose.

How else do we ever do certain things... ....if you know what I mean.
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:34
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Then the only thing I can tell you is that you would need to examine the issue. You would check the interpretation and the premises of both sides of the issue. Its not far from scientific.

By the way, could you or anyone else tell me about this super atheist thinking prowess that allows you to think in ways believers cannot? Do you have an example?
It still very much feels to me like a limitation.

Clearly an atheist doesn't by definition have more "thinking prowess". But I would say an atheist can allow themselves to think beyond the, apparently flexible, boundaries set by a god given rule book. A believer in the word of a god may have to question their own faith when straying over such boundaries. Doesn't mean that some believers wouldn't try, but the limitation would still exist. That's my opinion on the subject anyway.
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:35
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Well, if you don't believe the church is holy and you don't believe it has followers, then one wonders what you are doing insinde the church reciting the Crede.
Whenever I find myself in a Catholic church and we get to that part, I always bring to mind the word "Catholic" means universal. So I refer to that instead of the institution.

Is that like keeping one's fingers crossed?
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Old 18.04.2012, 18:38
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Clearly an atheist doesn't by definition have more "thinking prowess". But I would say an atheist can allow themselves to think beyond the, apparently flexible, boundaries set by a god given rule book. A believer in the word of a god may have to question their own faith when straying over such boundaries. Doesn't mean that some believers wouldn't try, but the limitation would still exist. That's my opinion on the subject anyway.
Would you kindly admit that this is based on your understanding of how a believer should think, based on your experience and observations, but that you cannot without a doubt really know how they are truly thinking?
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  #319  
Old 18.04.2012, 18:42
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Actually, it's:

" I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church"

Small-c catholic, as in universal.


But as this is spoken - how do you know it is a small c.?

I have just looked at some old prayer books and it is different in them all!!! - Some small c and some capital.

I find this intolerant to other religions - but just my opinion,

Anyway - back to the Titanic....
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  #320  
Old 18.04.2012, 18:46
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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... Like it or not, a religious perspective is quite narrow - I know, I was raised as a Christian. ...
Funny that. I was raised an atheist and became a Christian, and entirely disagree with you on this point. As Christian I get the whole of the creation AND a spiritual dimension to life. Before then, I "only" got the whole of creation - which admittedly is still pretty darn cool.
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