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Old 17.04.2012, 13:18
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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This is starting to creep me out. Can we stay on topic about the Titanic and church sermons and avoid casting the evil eye onto the OP? Thanks.

I'm sorry, how on earth does what I wrote translate as 'casting the evil eye onto the OP'? Which is you, if I'm not mistaken.

You seem to have something that you wish to talk to your priest about (ie; telling tall tales to your children as though they're true), I was just suggesting a more direct way of trying to contact him.
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  #122  
Old 17.04.2012, 13:25
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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No, just simply no.

There was no fancy word play there, just an accurate description.

I'm afraid that using a blind faith accusation for the "faithless" in regards to a blind following of science just doesn't apply - and really, it's one of the absolutely most astonishing failings of any pro-religion rebuttal I've seen.

The issue, is that we just simply don't share the same reasoning. In our training, we are taught to question, you are taught to believe; we are taught that our ideas must be supported by observed reality, you are taught that any idea that isn't supported is simply "divine"; we are taught that being proven wrong makes for a good day as we've learned something new, you're taught to resist views other than those preached from your specific brand of book; we're taught that a strong argument is logical and supportable; you're taught to appeal to wonder and emotion; we're taught that we "know" nothing, but to build on what we can support today to further what we do understand, you're taught that if you can link it to tone scripture, you "know" it to be true.

Unfortunately, though faith has indeed served mankind in the past, I, and I sincerely hope the majority of my kin, do not need a dusty book of questionable origin and a condescending flock of sinister-hat-and-robe donned congregation to tell me that theft and murder are bad things!!

To come to the real point, I'm afraid that I don't believe we'll ever really be able to communicate on a meaningful level. You see, questioning the universe and presenting those findings to peers for review is the foundation of our communication, and unfortunately as you would have had no experience in that, your arguments come across as poorly conceived, muddled, self-congratulatory, naive and infantile at the best of times.

And all this is evidenced. If a preacher, presenting a position of authority to young minds, spouts off an unsubstantiated story about the almighty smiting the unfaithful, most let it slide as the moral of the story was with good intention. But if a scientist were to do the same, they would be discredited and eventually, most likely expelled from the community.


I'm afraid these differences on core view will forever present a rift. You will always see me as a faithless , immoral "god-player", and I will likely always see you as naive, emotional and illogical.

But please, present a valid argument and prove me wrong.

Has it occurred to you yet that science and faith are two different ways of thinking for two different applications?

Science is a method of observation and analysis for interpolating facts. Faith is used for ethics and morality.

Just for the sake of convenience, I'll use Mathematics for Science, and behavior for Faith.

I could agree with the statement that Faith is NOT appropriate to use in mathematics. The results would be disastrous. Okay, well perhaps for probability. In the same way, how appropriate is Science for determining how to behave towards people? I can point you to some disastrous results.

Now these two modes of thinking are not contradictory. In fact, a person can integrate both in their thinking. Just because a person applies faith in their choices and behavior does not mean they cannot apply science. In fact, Rene Descartes, considered to be the "father of Modern Science" published his syllogism on the proof of God.

It's a ridiculous claim of atheists that Science disproves the existence of God. Science has NEVER disproven it. Atheism in itself is not even Scientific. It's merely a sentiment and predisposition of people, which actually goes against the grain of scientific thinking. It's often just an emotional disposition to some past bad experience with an encounter with something they perceived as religious. It cannot even sustain real intellectual examination.
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  #123  
Old 17.04.2012, 13:27
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Our local Vicar (in the UK) told our 5 year old that 'of course you are Christened, your parents would never allow you to grown up not Christened, as if you died, you wouldn't be able to go to Heaven
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..but why? Isn't this exactly what the bible preaches
I'm not a bible expert, but no, I'm pretty sure that it does not say anything of the kind.
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  #124  
Old 17.04.2012, 13:28
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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It's a ridiculous claim of atheists that Science disproves the existence of God.
It's even more ridiculous to suggest that this is something that atheists would claim.
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  #125  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:02
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Has it occurred to you yet that science and faith are two different ways of thinking for two different applications?

Science is a method of observation and analysis for interpolating facts. Faith is used for ethics and morality.

Just for the sake of convenience, I'll use Mathematics for Science, and behavior for Faith.

I could agree with the statement that Faith is NOT appropriate to use in mathematics. The results would be disastrous. Okay, well perhaps for probability. In the same way, how appropriate is Science for determining how to behave towards people? I can point you to some disastrous results.

Now these two modes of thinking are not contradictory. In fact, a person can integrate both in their thinking. Just because a person applies faith in their choices and behavior does not mean they cannot apply science. In fact, Rene Descartes, considered to be the "father of Modern Science" published his syllogism on the proof of God.

It's a ridiculous claim of atheists that Science disproves the existence of God. Science has NEVER disproven it. Atheism in itself is not even Scientific. It's merely a sentiment and predisposition of people, which actually goes against the grain of scientific thinking. It's often just an emotional disposition to some past bad experience with an encounter with something they perceived as religious. It cannot even sustain real intellectual examination.

I have to argue against the statement that Atheism itself is not ''scientific''. Belief and faith are based purely on just, well, believing and accepting.

Exceptional claims require exceptional proof - and if you expect me to believe that someone walked on water, arose from the dead, turned water into wine, was conceived ''immaculately'', not to mention that his father cares greatly about what I preoccupy myself with each day, then, well, expect me to require some proof before believing in these claims. And if the only proof you can provide is a dusty, disputed, jumbled, hundred year-old text written by a collection of scared shepherds from hearsay, what can I tell you? If I don't buy it, how is that an emotional decision? It isn't. On the contrary, it's a logical one.

To give these Atheists you've encountered the benefit of doubt for the sake of argument, perhaps what they mean is that ''god is not required anymore'', since we have been able to explain a lot of things by using science? That doesn't mean science disproves God, it means that with science, many ''godly'' wonders are now perfectly explainable.

And I understand what you say about morality and such, but honestly, I personally don't require the fear of eternal, scorching flames of fire in order not to murder or steal. I also don't require the promise of a reward (eternal life, etc) to act ethically and morally. If only the fear of forever burning in hell keeps people from murdering, that's pretty scary to me

Lastly, could you please explain why you think science is not appropriate in determining how to behave towards people? Why do you think it would have disastrous consequences?
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  #126  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:07
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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... If only the fear of forever burning in hell keeps people from murdering, that's pretty scary to me ...
The motivation for "doing good" is out of love toward god. Not even carrot and stick - just relationship.

Of course, some religious organisations have turned it into a fear of hell - but not so people won't murder, but rather so they'll do what the priests tell 'em!
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  #127  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:30
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The motivation for "doing good" is out of love toward god. Not even carrot and stick - just relationship.
Atheists can do good too and they don't have any relationship with your sky guy. So to do good you don't need God or religion. Thank you very much.
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  #128  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:32
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Lastly, could you please explain why you think science is not appropriate in determining how to behave towards people? Why do you think it would have disastrous consequences?
Science is merely a tool. It does not speak of ethics and morality. It speaks of factual data. It can be applied as a tool towards how to behave towards people, but you still need the underlying ethics and morality, which isn't from Science. And the modern applications of science is not even used for that purpose. It is more often used for maximizing profit for greed, and making weapons more efficient in the slaughter of human beings.

Science is quite far from complete. It's true it affords modern comforts, and heal some diseases, but we still get sick and die. There is so much more that Science can be used for, if applied for the benefit of mankind. But progress on such fronts is hampered by the economies of greed, which is an issue of morality and ethics. While progress has been impressive on a few spot points, it does not even scratch the surface of all the phenomena we can experience and observe.
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  #129  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:36
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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It's probably the lesson the preacher was teaching: The dangers of fully believing in the superiority of one's own smugness. Atheists take heed.
Pot kettle? Your smug posts remind me of the preacher guy from the excellent movie There will be blood.

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Old 17.04.2012, 14:43
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Science is quite far from complete. It's true it affords modern comforts, and heal some diseases, but we still get sick and die.
Yes around 50 years later than our ancestors Are you after the eternal life carrot?

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There is so much more that Science can be used for, if applied for the benefit of mankind. But progress on such fronts is hampered by the economies of greed, which is an issue of morality and ethics. While progress has been impressive on a few spot points, it does not even scratch the surface of all the phenomena we can experience and observe.
What has that got to do with God or religion? Some of the most unethical people I have come across have been religious. Being a decent human has got nothing to do with being Godly.
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  #131  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:45
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Pot kettle? Your smug posts remind me of the preacher guy from the excellent movie There will be blood.
Could we please lay off the ad hominem insults or There will be infractions
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  #132  
Old 17.04.2012, 14:47
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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What has that got to do with God or religion? Some of the most unethical people I have come across have been religious. Being a decent human has got nothing to do with being Godly.
Some of the most unethical acts in history have been preceded with the words "God wills it!" as justification.
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Old 17.04.2012, 14:51
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Could we please lay off the ad hominem insults or There will be infractions
Well his posts did remind me of him
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Old 17.04.2012, 14:58
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Some of the most unethical acts in history have been preceded with the words "God wills it!" as justification.
Replace 'God' with 'The People' and you have 100 million deaths.
It seems to me that people are people, regardless of their belief in a deity or not.
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  #135  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:00
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Some of the most unethical acts in history have been preceded with the words "God wills it!" as justification.
No disagreement there.

Although I recently read a comparison of how many people have been slaughtered in the name of socialism, often atheistic in nature. And it is quite up there, if not more than have been slaughtered in the name of religion.

Which one can argue that it is not religion per se that has committed unethical acts, it's humans. Religion is benign in action in itself. Its the corruption of Human Nature which religion has been prescribed to.

Trust me on this, there are people you don't know about who you would be glad to know are restrained in their behavior by a religion. You wouldn't really want them here on earth without it.
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Old 17.04.2012, 15:10
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Trust me on this, there are people you don't know about who you would be glad to know are restrained in their behavior by a religion. You wouldn't really want them here on earth without it.
Why on earth should we (trust you on this)? I mean, do you have some sort of special knowledge of all these potentially-evil people, who but for their faith in god would go around killing us in our beds, or what?

I think we should be told.
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Old 17.04.2012, 15:12
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Why on earth should we (trust you on this)? I mean, do you have some sort of special knowledge of all these potentially-evil people, who but for their faith in god would go around killing us in our beds, or what?

I think we should be told.
Millions of them.
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Old 17.04.2012, 15:13
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Trust me on this, there are people you don't know about who you would be glad to know are restrained in their behavior by a religion. You wouldn't really want them here on earth without it.

I definitely believe that...
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Old 17.04.2012, 15:17
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I definitely believe that...
Ditto. Sky Cake, man:



Although fear of government-sanctioned imprisonment and death, and generally being disliked by society, probably plays a big part, too. That just leaves psychopaths and sociopaths, but they're just trying to do best they can with the brain chemistry God gave them.
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Old 17.04.2012, 15:20
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Ditto. Sky Cake, man:

Although fear of government-sanctioned imprisonment and death probably plays a big part, too.


I recently read that if the Koran is translated from Syriac-Aramaic instead of Arabic, instead of ''72 virgins'', you get ''72 sweet, white raisins''

Sky cake sounds much better
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