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  #141  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:32
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

So there you go... without God, you would have Hell on Earth.

But wait, there's more.... those who pursue a relationship with God describe an inner-peace. They find practical meanings. Their lives start getting in order. They discover blessings.

Now, as an atheist, who the hell are you to mess with them? What the hell is your point anyway? Are your silly syllogisms better than the benefit they receive from God? What have you got to offer except for darkness and stupidty? If you don't want to believe it, then that is your problem. You don't make any logical and practical sense anyway. You're basically just a troll.

Last edited by Phos; 17.04.2012 at 15:58.
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  #142  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:35
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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So there you go... without God, you would have Hell on Earth.
Bollox. Does it occur to you that no one wants hell on earth? Does removing religion suddenly mean I want to make drastric reductions in my quality of life?

Rubbish, most people understand morality on a more basic scale than that, it's more inate, we're not predisposed to all being violent sociopaths, it's only the religious who tell us that.
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  #143  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:36
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

What has any of this religion talk got to do with the fact that a priest lied to the young people in church about the Titanic?
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  #144  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:42
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Now, as an atheist, who the hell are you to mess with them? What the hell is your point anyway? Are you silly syllogisms better than the benefit they receive from God? What have you got to offer except for darkness and stupidty? If you don't want to believe it, then that is your problem. You don't make any logical and practical sense anyway. You're basically just a troll.
Oh yeah, no one's engaging in trolling or empty provocation here.
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  #145  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:44
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Bollox. Does it occur to you that no one wants hell on earth? Does removing religion suddenly mean I want to make drastric reductions in my quality of life?

Rubbish, most people understand morality on a more basic scale than that, it's more inate, we're not predisposed to all being violent sociopaths, it's only the religious who tell us that.

How many violent sociopaths did it take to do what was done in the genocides of the past? Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Iraq, etc.?
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  #146  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:47
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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What has any of this religion talk got to do with the fact that a priest lied to the young people in church about the Titanic?
I guess a lot of it's just the "tip of the iceberg" when it comes to atheist's beef with religion.

(Sorry I couldn't resist )
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  #147  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:47
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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What has any of this religion talk got to do with the fact that a priest lied to the young people in church about the Titanic?
Alright, point made and point taken. I'll pause.
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  #148  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:50
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I recently read that if the Koran is translated from Syriac-Aramaic instead of Arabic, instead of ''72 virgins'', you get ''72 sweet, white raisins''
You cannot translate it from anything else than Arabic as it was written in Arabic. The point Luxenberg made was that certain phrases in the oldest texts are very hard to explain for Arabic scholars. Some might offer new meanings if one accepts that some terms were borrowed from Arabian Jews or Syrian Christians. (Because scientists believe that Mohammed spend some time discussing religious concepts with early Christians in Syria.) Using existing terms from other languages makes perfect sense when writing a book on concepts that were new for Arabs. But it is for the hardcore Jihadists provocation enough that "Luxenberg" had to use a pseudonym to publish his extremely boring and scientific book... not surprisingly did the media reduce it to "German scientist believes that there are no virgins waiting in paradise"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christoph_Luxenberg
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  #149  
Old 17.04.2012, 15:52
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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How many violent sociopaths did it take to do what was done in the genocides of the past? Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Iraq, etc.?
They have to be trained and conditioned. Religion can certainly help with that.
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  #150  
Old 17.04.2012, 16:20
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I'm still here and following the thread.

1. I've spoken to a few locals about this and honestly, no one is dealing with this that emotionally as many posters on this thread.

2. I've spoken to my teenage kids about the priest's religion classes. They've reassured me nobody listens to him anyway so it's all no big deal.

3. The priest hasn't accepted my friendship on FB yet. When the situation finally arises, I plan on bringing a joint and talk about this subject peacefully. (The priest reminds me of Shaggy on Scooby Doo).

Edit: The joint was a joke, OK? I'm bringing KraŁterschnapps instead.
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  #151  
Old 17.04.2012, 16:33
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I recently read that if the Koran is translated from Syriac-Aramaic instead of Arabic, instead of ''72 virgins'', you get ''72 sweet, white raisins''

Sky cake sounds much better
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  #152  
Old 17.04.2012, 16:35
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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I'm still here and following the thread.

1. I've spoken to a few locals about this and honestly, no one is dealing with this that emotionally as many posters on this thread.

2. I've spoken to my teenage kids about the priest's religion classes. They've reassured me nobody listens to him anyway so it's all no big deal.

3. The priest hasn't accepted my friendship on FB yet. When the situation finally arises, I plan on bringing a joint and talk about this subject peacefully. (The priest reminds me of Shaggy on Scooby Doo).

Edit: The joint was a joke, OK? I'm bringing KraŁterschnapps instead.
Are you saying that your average central Swiss neighbour is less critical of the catholic church than the average EF user???

Let me put it differently:
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  #153  
Old 17.04.2012, 19:53
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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It seems to me that people are people, regardless of their belief in a deity or not.
So being religious or Godly is not automatically going to make a person better than an Atheist, would you agree?
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  #154  
Old 17.04.2012, 19:58
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The motivation for "doing good" is out of love toward god. Not even carrot and stick - just relationship.

Of course, some religious organisations have turned it into a fear of hell - but not so people won't murder, but rather so they'll do what the priests tell 'em!
A study of Kohlberg's theory of morality acquisition is extremely interesting.
He formulates 6 stages of moral development, the carrot and stick is the lowest.

Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

1. Obedience and punishment orientation (How can I avoid punishment?)
2. Self-interest orientation (What's in it for me?)(Paying for a benefit)

Level 2 (Conventional)

3. Interpersonal accord and conformity (Social norms)(The good boy/good girl attitude)
4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (Law and order morality)

Level 3 (Post-Conventional)


5. Social contract orientation (follow the laws and rules, but with a critical mind and ready to say NO if you think said rules are unethical or inhuman)
6. Universal ethical principles (Principled conscience)

It's very interesting and worth more study.

Last edited by Odile; 17.04.2012 at 23:47.
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  #155  
Old 17.04.2012, 19:59
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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Our local priest thinks you can feed five thousand people with a couple of fish and a bit of bread.
You can.

If the fish and the bread are big enough.
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  #156  
Old 17.04.2012, 20:06
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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So there you go... without God, you would have Hell on Earth.

But wait, there's more.... those who pursue a relationship with God describe an inner-peace. They find practical meanings. Their lives start getting in order. They discover blessings.

Now, as an atheist, who the hell are you to mess with them? What the hell is your point anyway? Are your silly syllogisms better than the benefit they receive from God? What have you got to offer except for darkness and stupidty? If you don't want to believe it, then that is your problem. You don't make any logical and practical sense anyway. You're basically just a troll.
What the! Are you for real?

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Trust me on this, there are people you don't know about who you would be glad to know are restrained in their behavior by a religion. You wouldn't really want them here on earth without it.
Are you one of them?
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Old 17.04.2012, 20:33
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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What the! Are you for real?

Are you one of them?
oh yeah...
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  #158  
Old 17.04.2012, 23:17
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

The priest has befriended me on FB. Time for a meeting.
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Old 17.04.2012, 23:21
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

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The priest has befriended me on FB. Time for a meeting.
I say bring the joint.
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Old 18.04.2012, 02:21
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Re: Titanic: No God, No Church

To add to the rest of the off-topic comments:

Bad people generally do bad things, regardless of whether or not they believe in any gods, or whether or not they have brown or black hair, or whether or not they are left handed, but it takes something like religion for the good to do bad.

However, I suppose you have to give it to the religious that perhaps otherwise bad people would be worse without religion. It depends on how much faith you have in humanity. It could be the case that we'd be worse off, overall, without religion, but it's less depressing to think that humans aren't inherently evil. Besides, that control over the otherwise evil only works if they're foolish enough to be religious in the first place. All my diabolical, mass-murdering heroes are smart enough to use religion but not to actually believe it in themselves.

so what this entails is that there are good religious people acting morally, good non religious people acting morally, bad religious people possibly doing less harm than they would have had they not being religious, and then bad non religious people doing harm.

It seems like the argument that religion is positive, because bad religious people are controlled by religion to be less bad, doesn't outweigh the harm done by the good religious people who are only doing harm because of religion (just one current example, otherwise good people supporting legislation that would ban abortion under any circumstances, even incest or rape, or requiring intrusive medical procedures and other things to make it more difficult and embarrassing for the poor women). The Catholic church, for example, does a lot of good in the world, but millions suffer because of the church's position that dying of aids is morally superior to condom usage.

Finally, the non belief in gods does not compel one to act, at all, in any way, good or bad, so it's ridiculous to argue that a lack of faith can cause otherwise good people to do harm. It just doesn't make any sense.
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