Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #141  
Old 01.07.2012, 12:52
Mark75's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: by the lake (either one)
Posts: 2,510
Groaned at 45 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 3,136 Times in 1,363 Posts
Mark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
If you have advice for her, why not offer it sympathetically?
IMHO there was plenty of quite reasonable advice buried in this thread but the OP would accept none of it...
  #142  
Old 01.07.2012, 12:59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Lausanne (VD)
Posts: 295
Groaned at 68 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 183 Times in 77 Posts
vribium has earned some respectvribium has earned some respect
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

I would love to see the OP in real life. It would give me insight, how the dumbest people on earth look like.
This user would like to thank vribium for this useful post:
  #143  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:02
Pachyderm's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,549
Groaned at 76 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,156 Posts
Pachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
Pachyderm and embo you've been very quick to criticise the ones giving their opinion and who at the start were giving constructive advice and trying to explain the mentality of the people there but then after she tried to give us a lesson on morality and after she was shouting down any opinion apart from hers what do you expect?

Anyway both of you haven't giving her any advice yet. You have just shown sympathy for her. So looking forward how should she proceed in the future?
On the first page, there was a post from Sapin that seemed to hit the right tone but I noticed little else that I'd regard as constructive advice - or that wasn't carefully wrapped in barbed wire as it was delivered.

My own advice was hinted at a few posts ago, but ok, let me expand.

I've always liked the Eleanor Roosevelt approach, that no one can make me feel inferior without my permission. It's based on the premise that there are some things in life you can change and some you can't. We waste a lot of emotional energy on the latter. We see it here on this forum when some people vent about how awful life is in Switzerland because they can't buy their favourite brand of jelly. In these situations we have to consider how to change our own attitude to deal with these things rather than demand that the world changes to accommodate our needs.

These things are worth thinking about in my experience, and in time you reach a compromise with the world around you that improves both.

Regarding the OP's situation, on the facts as presented, it seems that the men were not being overly offensive in their terms. They sounded like middle-aged chaps behaving like middle-aged chaps do after a few beers. In bars late on a Saturday all over the planet people are like this. Heck, I may even have been like this myself.

If this sort of thing will never be acceptable to the OP, unfortunately she will have to avoid bars after mid-evening. Better would be a coffee bar like Starbucks where it's not just acceptable but compulsory to sit in the corner with a laptop looking extremely intense. I do it sometimes.

But I guess there is no Starbucks in the OP's village , so if she wants to continue to use the bar, good for her, but she should at least give some thought to the Roosevelt dictum, as a great deal of wisdom lies within.

In summary, what the OP will not change is the mores of 'guys in a bar', so the choice left to her is to change the venue, or change the mindset.

That would be my advice.
The following 2 users would like to thank Pachyderm for this useful post:
  #144  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:31
Peg A's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 4,422
Groaned at 158 Times in 125 Posts
Thanked 5,428 Times in 2,510 Posts
Peg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond reputePeg A has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post

In summary, what the OP will not change is the mores of 'guys in a bar', so the choice left to her is to change the venue, or change the mindset.

That would be my advice.
Which is the same advice I gave. Just in case you missed it.
The following 2 users would like to thank Peg A for this useful post:
  #145  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:38
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 5,056
Groaned at 286 Times in 204 Posts
Thanked 10,667 Times in 4,005 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

I must admit... I had to read the original post a few times because I couldn't understand what exactly these men did to deserve the OP's reaction.

The OP states that these men looked her "up and down" only AFTER she refused to shake their hands and automatically assumed that they were hitting on her. So all I can think is that the men looked her "up and down" in such a way simply because THEY were the ones offended.
The following 7 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #146  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:39
sarel's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 358
Groaned at 12 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 293 Times in 160 Posts
sarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputationsarel has an excellent reputation
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
I live in a small village near Sion. There is a newly open bar& restaurant in my neighbourhood which I had considered as a decent place.I don’t drink alcohol, sometimes when the restaurants are open, I go for a meal or a cup of coffee.

Yesterday evening it was first time when I went to that bar, quite cosy and clean inside, like the pubs in Connemara in Ireland. I brought my laptop and a nice girl who works in the restaurant helped me with theWiFi. I preferred to stay inside, as there were lots of flies outside bar. The evening seemed to go well, there were some families with children while the other guests were sitting on the terrace. the music was ok, from the 80’s. But the families left and I stayed alone for a while inside the bar. After a cup of Ovomaltine I ordered a coffee and continued working on my laptop. Then, around 22.00pm the group of four Swiss people came in. Two men and a woman aged 55-65 and a woman in her 40‘s, slightly overweighted. They took places at the nearest table, I answered their „bonsoir“ and, being completely absorbed by the things on my laptop, I didin’t spot when these women dissapeared. I heard one of these men talking to me but the music was loud and I didin’t understand him. I approached their table and the man wanted to shake my hand to „know the young girl‘s name“. I said I wasn’t young and refused to shake his hand. He stared at me from head to toe and said something to his mate. I said I had a boyfriend 12 years my junior, the older man groaned. I returned to my table, I saw their female mates returning and these men behave as if nothing happened. I wanted to approach them and to tell to these women how I was treated but the owner of he bar sat next tot hem and started a conversation. I waited until the two couples left the bar and then I went back home.

I wasn’t dressed inappropriately, I am rather unfeminine, I always wear trousers, never skirts nor dresses, and I wear shirts with long sleeves. If this bar looked rough, I would never go inside. When I lived in both Ireland and the UK, I often went tot he pubs on my own but I was treated with respect. I never start a conversation with strangers. Today I was very angry. I cannot leave it or forget about it. I feel I need to talk to the owner of this bar.
1. Why do you go to a bar alone if you don't want anyone to talk to you?
2. Why did you go up to them if you don't want to talk to anyone?
3. Why isn't 37 still young?
4. Why did you refuse to shake his hand?
5. Don't you know that it was rude to not shake his hand?
6. Do you realize he stared at you because he was offended?
7. What does one of the women's overweight have anything to do with it?
8. What does the age of both women got to do with it?

you're weird...
The following 4 users would like to thank sarel for this useful post:
This user groans at sarel for this post:
  #147  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:44
Pachyderm's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,549
Groaned at 76 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,156 Posts
Pachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond reputePachyderm has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
Which is the same advice I gave. Just in case you missed it.
Yes, I did miss it. I must have been losing focus by post no. 113. Just been back and 'thanked' you.

It isn't exactly the same advice. We agree on changing the venue as the simplest option. But I'd like the OP to think about her own resilience before abandoning her ground. If she can't, or won't, compromise on that, sure, she has to find an alternative. But it would be a shame to pass up the opportunity to strengthen herself a little. It's a tough old world out there....



....but in the great scheme of things, there are far worse things that can happen than a beery man wanting to shake your hands in a bar. So she needs to think seriously about this.
  #148  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:48
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,750
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,639 Times in 7,827 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
As a chap, my skin crawls when I hear some men trying to chat up women. I'm certain nobody minds a charming compliment but most guys just can't do it. Heck, even I get it wrong sometimes (usually because they're a bit thick and it's lost on them, ha). Can't imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end.

In a club recently I witnessed a friend getting her butt squeezed on the dancefloor. I told her I saw it and ought I have a word with the Groper. She didn't seem to mind, whereas from where I was standing it looked more assault than er, a charming compliment.

If women don't make a fuss then creepy immature freaks will carry on.
What? You're saying that butt groping is no longer a valid chat up line? There goes half of my repertoire. Thank god tit grabbing is still OK!

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 01.07.2012 at 19:39.
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #149  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:54
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,975
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
Which is the same advice I gave. Just in case you missed it.
And me.... Post 95. Before Pachyderm lost concentration.

Quote:
You can't control other people's actions. You can only control your reaction.
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #150  
Old 01.07.2012, 13:57
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,015
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,837 Times in 2,059 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Carrie, I completely agree with you. Offering someone your hand is a respectful greeting in Switzerland and refusing it, is a blatant insult. Hence the up and down look, which in my interpretation means "who the hell do you think you are"!

The OP obviously doesn't know the manners in Switzerland and would rather jump to the conclusion she was sexually harassed. Which is a shame and rather portrays her own state of mind.



Quote:
View Post
I must admit... I had to read the original post a few times because I couldn't understand what exactly these men did to deserve the OP's reaction.

The OP states that these men looked her "up and down" only AFTER she refused to shake their hands and automatically assumed that they were hitting on her. So all I can think is that the men looked her "up and down" in such a way simply because THEY were the ones offended.
The following 15 users would like to thank Oldhand for this useful post:
This user groans at Oldhand for this post:
  #151  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
The OP obviously doesn't know the manners in Switzerland and would rather jump to the conclusion she was sexually harassed.
It's in such cases I just love freudian psychology.
This user groans at Faltrad for this post:
  #152  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:07
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,015
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,837 Times in 2,059 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
It's in such cases I just love freudian psychology.
Is that what it is? Fancy that!
This user would like to thank Oldhand for this useful post:
  #153  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:07
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Valais
Posts: 121
Groaned at 118 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 16 Posts
Argent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthy
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
Gosh this thread went nuts overnight!


It seems that perhaps you grew up in a more conservative area of the US but you have to understand that the culture in Europe is (mainly) quite open and relaxed.

Embrace it - you never know, next time you pay a visit home you might find Europe has rubbed off on you and you'll surprise your friends by talking or acting a bit risqué.

It's interesting that your profile says you've been in Ireland and the UK. Did this sort of thing not happen to you over there? My memories of being in Ireland are of very friendly (read over-friendy) people who don't give too much of a hoot if they're not meticulously PC 100% of the time. Love them!
I am a European.
This sort of thing has NEVER happened to me in Ireland nor in the UK. In Britain I worked near the North Sea, where people are very outspoken and men like to drink well in pubs, but believe me, nobody offended me.

It is a difference between a friendliness, which you come across in Ireland, and the "machism" which you come across in some parts of Switzerland (I am not aware of the mentality in German-speaking cantons).
  #154  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
(I am not aware of the mentality in German-speaking canons).
... but in French-speaking canons, right?

You really make me love Freud more and more. Look at that picture and tell me what you see:
This user groans at Faltrad for this post:
  #155  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:12
Oldhand's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 4,015
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 6,837 Times in 2,059 Posts
Oldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond reputeOldhand has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

It's rare in England and Ireland to be offered a hand in greeting strangers.

I don't want to presume too much but are you feeling vulnerable?


Quote:
View Post
I am a European.
This sort of thing has NEVER happened to me in Ireland nor in the UK. In Britain I worked near the North Sea, where people are very outspoken and men like to drink well in pubs, but believe me, nobody offended me.

It is a difference between a friendliness, which you come across in Ireland, and the "machism" which you come across in some parts of Switzerland (I am not aware of the mentality in German-speaking cantons).
This user would like to thank Oldhand for this useful post:
  #156  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:16
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
I am a European.
This sort of thing has NEVER happened to me in Ireland nor in the UK. In Britain I worked near the North Sea, where people are very outspoken and men like to drink well in pubs, but believe me, nobody offended me.

It is a difference between a friendliness, which you come across in Ireland, and the "machism" which you come across in some parts of Switzerland (I am not aware of the mentality in German-speaking cantons).
Grow up and get a life or go back to the North Sea then!
  #157  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:20
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Valais
Posts: 121
Groaned at 118 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 22 Times in 16 Posts
Argent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthyArgent is considered unworthy
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
Carrie, I completely agree with you. Offering someone your hand is a respectful greeting in Switzerland and refusing it, is a blatant insult. Hence the up and down look, which in my interpretation means "who the hell do you think you are"!

The OP obviously doesn't know the manners in Switzerland and would rather jump to the conclusion she was sexually harassed. Which is a shame and rather portrays her own state of mind.
I think you blatantly want to bully me on this forum.

People, why are you so spitful on me?
The following 5 users groan at Argent for this post:
  #158  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 208 Times in 133 Posts
Thanked 6,403 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
People, why are you so spitful on me?
We are not spitful, we are frivolous... like the salvation army.
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #159  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:28
jrspet's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Quaint Wädenswil, Zürich, CH
Posts: 8,131
Groaned at 27 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 7,036 Times in 3,912 Posts
jrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond reputejrspet has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
People, why are you so spitful on me?
You have said this before in your other thread, perhaps the answers you seek were already there.
  #160  
Old 01.07.2012, 14:30
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,975
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Unwanted sexist comments from men in public

Quote:
View Post
I think you blatantly want to bully me on this forum.
Look who is talking. Please stop bullying and threatening me in private messages. I will no longer read them. Thank you.
The following 4 users would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
This user groans at miniMia for this post:
Closed Thread




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Racist and sexist in Zurich...or am I paranoid? SunshineLand Daily life 174 14.10.2013 22:40
From racist to sexist liz ryan Complaints corner 120 21.06.2013 17:22
Sexist interview questions red_conundrum Employment 103 13.06.2013 22:48
Would appreciate comments, especially from a Christian perspective... coup-de-grâce Daily life 35 10.04.2012 22:16
unwanted advice from in-laws chrisinzurich Family matters/health 4 14.02.2011 19:51


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0