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  #61  
Old 11.08.2012, 22:35
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

failure to adequately plan a facility to
fully account for the diversity of users and behaviour of users may cause confl ict between bicycle riders and pedestrians
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  #62  
Old 11.08.2012, 22:50
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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failure to adequately plan a facility to
fully account for the diversity of users and behaviour of users may cause confl ict between bicycle riders and pedestrians
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  #63  
Old 11.08.2012, 23:40
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

I confess I haven't read the full thread so probably I will say things that were already discussed, but here it goes my rant/reflexions on the matter.

I am a cyclist, I do it as a sport, but also as a commuter, I commute everywhere by bike in all weathers. But I also have a car, so I pay the same ( or maybe more ) taxes and road infrastructure contributions as any other motorist.

For that reason I consider that when I am on the road, be on a car or on a bike I have full rights and obligations as any other vehicule.


I don't run red lights or go against the traffic flow, I am often annoyed when I see other cyclist running the red lights and giving us a bad reputation, I don't need to do that because I am fast enough, and usually I end catching and passing the idiot cyclist the ran the light while I was waiting on the red.

I use the cycling paths, but many times I have just to go on the road because those cycling paths have slower riders, or have debriss and glass etc, I confess sometimes I ride over the trottoir ( when it is clear ).

Those are my cycling sins.

now to my rant.

People tend to focus on the bad cyclists, blaming them for anything.

but think about it, it is not "the cyclists", it is everybody else, doesn't matter if they are walking, skating, on trottinette, on scotters, motorcyles or cars. they simply don't give a feck about the others, unless of course they are risking a hefty fine.

you can't ride safely on the cycling paths, because pedestrians believe they can wander around aimlessly and without looking where are going. They wouldn't do that on a road, sure, because they would risk death, but they think they can do it on the cycling paths, specially around the lake. That is indeed very dangerous if one cyclist run them over at 35Kmh, for both of them, but nobody seems to mind that.

Second the cars. As they are inside their comfortable box, they don't realise they have to be careful and give people on bikes the room and time to manouver, and specially to start to roll, on those short seconds where you are still breaking the inertia and not rolling, more over on times of rain or cold etc. The only way a cyclist has to increase their safety is to try to put themselves in front of the cars on the red lights ( or simply run them ) or going over the trottoir ( sidewalk ). And specially when the cars think it is perfectly fine to place themselves close to the border of the road at corners cutting you the clearance to pass.

And what about the right of way. that is one of my peeves, If you are in a car and your lane is blocked by parked cars or road work or wathever, and another vehicle is coming on its free lane, then you have to stop before the obstacle, and let pass the one who has right of way. Sure that is clear and obvious, but for the motorist that rule doesn't apply if the other vehicle is a bicycle. they just come in and you have to swerve to avoid them. same thing in many right-priority crossing. when I see that I purposely block their way and knock at their windows to remember them the road code. specially when the cyclist is coming on a descent. Remember, we don't have powerful brakes on our bikes, we can't just stop so fast, because you don't have 5 seconds to lose.

rant over, there are many other things to complain about though.
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  #64  
Old 11.09.2012, 15:40
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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This simply is wrong. As a cyclist you ARE allowed to overtake a car on the right side always. The only thing is that you have to be certain to have enough space.

THIS aspect already was evident in the 1960ies and never changed
Thanks for the answer (albeit in a somewhat condescending tone...).

However, I decided to do some research and actually this particular situation seems to be in somewhat of a grey area.

The only specific thing I could find was this:

Motorräder und Fahrräder; Allgemeines
Art. 42

(Art. 19 Abs. 1, 46 Abs. 3 und 4, 47 Abs. 2 SVG)
1 Motorradfahrer und Radfahrer müssen auf dem für sie bestimmten Sitz Platz nehmen. Kinder dürfen ein Fahrrad nur benützen, wenn sie die Pedale sitzend treten können.*

2 Motorradfahrer und Radfahrer dürfen keine Gegenstände mitführen, welche die Zeichengebung verunmöglichen oder andere Strassenbenützer gefährden. Mitgeführte Gegenstände dürfen höchstens 1 m breit sein.

3 Radfahrer dürfen rechts neben einer Motorfahrzeugkolonne vorbeifahren, wenn genügend freier Raum vorhanden ist; das slalomartige Vorfahren ist untersagt. Sie dürfen die Weiterfahrt der Kolonne nicht behindern und sich namentlich nicht vor haltende Wagen stellen.1

4 Die Führer von Motorfahrrädern haben die Vorschriften für Radfahrer zu beachten sowie zur Vermeidung von Lärm die Bestimmungen für Motorfahrzeugführer.

Point 3 only really mentions when vehicles are stopped in a column that you can pass on the right, but does not mention passing a moving vehicle (I assume this is due to their assumption that a car is usually faster than a bicycle). So what is allowed? In the case I mentioned it seems logical that passing on the right would not be allowed...

Another thing was that a cyclist may overtake on the right (standing column of traffic) as long as it does not impede the flow of the traffic column. This kind of implies that passing a slower moving car would also not really be a good idea, as it is very likely he will impede the car pretty soon.

And another thing, on mobi.ch (yes, not official traffic department but they at least have something). They mention this: Beim Überholen eines langsameren Fahrzeugs und beim Vorbeifahren an Hindernissen am rechten Strassenrand (Baustellen, parkierte Autos) ist mit einem «Blick zurück» festzustellen, ob ein Ausweichen gegen die Strassenmitte möglich ist, ohne durch nachfolgende Fahrzeuge gefährdet zu werden. Implying that you should overtake like a car does (i.e. on the left).

Again though, no specific rule regarding the situation I mentioned previously.
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Old 11.09.2012, 16:22
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

I like cyclists.

I like their passion, their commitment, even their strange obsession with lycra.

I had never rode a "good" bike before, and when i did, WOW, it felt great. Not as good as it feels to ski, but it felt good.

I also enjoy making them get off their bike and push it around me, and getting back on it again. I enjoy making them stop when they are riding towards me, as if I am in desperate need of help, to kindly show them where the cycle lane is.

I also sometimes pray when they cylce past me on the pavement and scare the shiiiiit out my dog that one day, one day he will be quick enough and commited enough to latch on to their leg and take them down.

I used to be more anti cyclists pre living in Zurich, but then I learned the people cant even walk properly so I cant dig on cyclists too much, as long as they stick to their lanes.
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Old 11.09.2012, 16:38
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

are cyclists allowed to use the pavement?
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  #67  
Old 11.09.2012, 16:51
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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are cyclists allowed to use the pavement?
Only if there is a marked cycle path on it. It's a pet hate of mine the cyclists that go barreling down the pavement. I've been hit twice by cyclists; once a bash on the wrist which stung like hell but wasn't serious the second time I ended up with a gash on my leg and a torn dress. Each time the cyclist was long gone.

In my fantasy punishment catalogue they would get an umbrella shoved between the spokes whilst in full tilt.
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Old 11.09.2012, 17:01
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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Only if there is a marked cycle path on it. It's a pet hate of mine the cyclists that go barreling down the pavement. I've been hit twice by cyclists; once a bash on the wrist which stung like hell but wasn't serious the second time I ended up with a gash on my leg and a torn dress. Each time the cyclist was long gone.

In my fantasy punishment catalogue they would get an umbrella shoved between the spokes whilst in full tilt.
sorry to hear about that. I have to cross a normally quite street each morning and sometimes I find that, just as I am halfway across the street, a cyclist appears out of nowhere and cuts right across me at high speed. It's very annoying and potentially very dangerous.
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Old 11.09.2012, 17:16
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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I like cyclists.

I also sometimes pray when they cylce past me on the pavement and scare the shiiiiit out my dog that one day, one day he will be quick enough and commited enough to latch on to their leg and take them down.
Well that's a bad/stupid behaviour from the cyclist:

As a cyclist, I always need to know what's ahead of me to adapt my speed and control my direction (ie: where's im going to be 10-20meters ahead).

I see any "moving" thing ahead (walker, kid, dog, etc): I always slow down, see if I can safely bypass them with a reasonable distance. (ie I look if there's car on my side, or behind, or if there's an alternate path).

If not I slow down to a near stop and patiently wait until they see me.


Reason? I know the dog/kid/walker can be random, make random lateral move, or get scared.

Problem?: yes I don't have a "beep" because I know it makes walkers aggressive, but even when you are decently far behind the walker (more than 1 meter away, nearly stopped and say politely "excuse me", you still get the groans, or complains...

But I understood, bikers always attract the frustrations of cars because you're tinier/weaker and of walkers because you're not as big/harmful than a car.

Still I'm respecting any dogs, or walkers, even when they are nasty du.mbs.
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Old 11.09.2012, 17:21
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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Only if there is a marked cycle path on it. It's a pet hate of mine the cyclists that go barreling down the pavement. I've been hit twice by cyclists; once a bash on the wrist which stung like hell but wasn't serious the second time I ended up with a gash on my leg and a torn dress. Each time the cyclist was long gone.

In my fantasy punishment catalogue they would get an umbrella shoved between the spokes whilst in full tilt.
Those are extremely bad, coward, and illegal behaviours...

But the same is for any "drivers"... they sometimes do some illegal thing, and don't often get caught...

Have you called the police in your case, immediately? any witness?
Those aseholes needs to be caught, confronted and punished....

Obviously its like the topic of the "foreigner complains about the Swiss" topics in this forum: the behavior of a few dumb cyclist negatively impacts all cyclists. That's not fair.
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Old 11.09.2012, 18:13
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

I cycle a lot and find drivers here mostly quite tolerant but it depends on where you are - in most centres there are lots of bike lanes but elsewhere you are fighting for space and drivers are less patient. I don't like cyclists on pavements and I've seen policemen stop bikes doing that as well, so I guess there is probably some rule or law against it.
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Old 11.09.2012, 18:23
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

I usually ride my bike on the sidewalk, whenever it is free of pedestrians.

I also use the pedestrian cross with green light, while on my bike. I don't see any "sin" in that, but once a woman yelled at me from her car because of that (I guess, it was Swiss German...).

Is any of that explicitly forbidden?
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Old 11.09.2012, 18:46
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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I usually ride my bike on the sidewalk, whenever it is free of pedestrians.

I also use the pedestrian cross with green light, while on my bike. I don't see any "sin" in that, but once a woman yelled at me from her car because of that (I guess, it was Swiss German...).

Is any of that explicitly forbidden?
Sorry I won't translate due to lack of time and will:

RS 741.01 Loi fédérale sur la circulation routière
Art. 46
Règles concernant les cyclistes
1 Les cyclistes doivent circuler sur les pistes et les bandes cyclables.

...
Art. 43

Répartition de la circulation

1 Les véhicules automobiles et les cycles n’emprunteront pas les chemins qui ne se prêtent pas ou ne sont manifestement pas destinés à leur circulation, par exemple les chemins réservés aux piétons ou au tourisme pédestre.

2 Le trottoir est réservé aux piétons, la piste cyclable aux cyclistes. Le Conseil fédéral peut prévoir des exceptions.


Hmm... it's not sure!!
It's all in the "ne sont manifestement pas destinés à leur circulation", I would say that the large sidewalks are not "obviously not made for their traffic"...

I think it has been answered already in the forum before, but now you have the Swiss law (in french, google it).
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Old 11.09.2012, 18:51
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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I usually ride my bike on the sidewalk, whenever it is free of pedestrians.

I also use the pedestrian cross with green light, while on my bike. I don't see any "sin" in that, but once a woman yelled at me from her car because of that (I guess, it was Swiss German...).

Is any of that explicitly forbidden?
Cycling on the path is an offence unless it's marked as a cycle path. If it's marked then pedestrians know they are sharing with cyclists. I'm fairly sure that using a pedestrian crossing with your bike is also an offence. The clue is in the name "pedestrian" crossing.


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Those are extremely bad, coward, and illegal behaviours...

But the same is for any "drivers"... they sometimes do some illegal thing, and don't often get caught...

Have you called the police in your case, immediately? any witness?
Those aseholes needs to be caught, confronted and punished....

Obviously its like the topic of the "foreigner complains about the Swiss" topics in this forum: the behavior of a few dumb cyclist negatively impacts all cyclists. That's not fair.
It was all over in a flash and whereas I'm pretty sure the cyclists knew they'd struck me (on both occasions) neither made any attempt to stop, or even glance back. When my leg was cut I was more concerned with that than trying to get witnesses so I guess a call to the police would have been pointless.

I'm also a cyclist but ride my bike as if I'm driving my car (i.e. stick to the rules of the road) but I feel like I am in the majority, especially considering the number of cyclists that pass me when I am stopped at a red light.
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Old 11.09.2012, 19:55
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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I am a cyclist, I do it as a sport, but also as a commuter, I commute everywhere by bike in all weathers.

For that reason I consider that when I am on the road, be on a car or on a bike I have full rights and obligations as any other vehicule.


I don't run red lights or go against the traffic flow, I am often annoyed when I see other cyclist running the red lights and giving us a bad reputation, I don't need to do that because I am fast enough, and usually I end catching and passing the idiot cyclist the ran the light while I was waiting on the red.

I use the cycling paths, but many times I have just to go on the road because those cycling paths have slower riders, or have debriss and glass etc, I confess sometimes I ride over the trottoir ( when it is clear ).

Those are my cycling sins.

now to my rant.

People tend to focus on the bad cyclists, blaming them for anything.

but think about it, it is not "the cyclists", it is everybody else, doesn't matter if they are walking, skating, on trottinette, on scotters, motorcyles or cars. they simply don't give a feck about the others, unless of course they are risking a hefty fine.

you can't ride safely on the cycling paths, because pedestrians believe they can wander around aimlessly and without looking where are going. They wouldn't do that on a road, sure, because they would risk death, but they think they can do it on the cycling paths, specially around the lake. That is indeed very dangerous if one cyclist run them over at 35Kmh, for both of them, but nobody seems to mind that.

Second the cars. As they are inside their comfortable box, they don't realise they have to be careful and give people on bikes the room and time to manouver, and specially to start to roll, on those short seconds where you are still breaking the inertia and not rolling, more over on times of rain or cold etc. The only way a cyclist has to increase their safety is to try to put themselves in front of the cars on the red lights ( or simply run them ) or going over the trottoir ( sidewalk ). And specially when the cars think it is perfectly fine to place themselves close to the border of the road at corners cutting you the clearance to pass.

And what about the right of way. that is one of my peeves, If you are in a car and your lane is blocked by parked cars or road work or wathever, and another vehicle is coming on its free lane, then you have to stop before the obstacle, and let pass the one who has right of way. Sure that is clear and obvious, but for the motorist that rule doesn't apply if the other vehicle is a bicycle. they just come in and you have to swerve to avoid them. same thing in many right-priority crossing. when I see that I purposely block their way and knock at their windows to remember them the road code. specially when the cyclist is coming on a descent. Remember, we don't have powerful brakes on our bikes, we can't just stop so fast, because you don't have 5 seconds to lose.

rant over, there are many other things to complain about though.

Definitely agree with most of this. I commute mostly by bike and the problem is that the cars think you are a pedestrian, and should stick to the path, where as the pedestrian thinks you are traffic and should get out of the path. When there is a marked bike lane, I use it, and I follow traffic rules as if I were a car. But there are plenty of instances where this is actually less safe or hindered. For example if I need to turn left, I ride on the road. On Fri/Sat evening many bike lanes are filled with parked cars, not to mention the drainage grates and glass. It also seems that many cars cant seem to stay in their lane and think the bike lane is part of the car lane.

I have never lived in London, which appears to be cyclists hell, but the drivers in Zurich are VERY impatient and have pretty bad road rage. (many will not stop at crossing lanes for pedestrians and yes, a 4 year old on a wooden cycle is a pedestrian!) Frankly, if you insist on driving within the city and can't spare an extra minute to deal with the bikers on the road, maybe it is time to reconsider the real problem.
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  #76  
Old 11.09.2012, 20:08
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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Definitely agree with most of this. I commute mostly by bike and the problem is that the cars think you are a pedestrian, and should stick to the path, where as the pedestrian thinks you are traffic and should get out of the path. When there is a marked bike lane, I use it, and I follow traffic rules as if I were a car. But there are plenty of instances where this is actually less safe or hindered. For example if I need to turn left, I ride on the road. On Fri/Sat evening many bike lanes are filled with parked cars, not to mention the drainage grates and glass. It also seems that many cars cant seem to stay in their lane and think the bike lane is part of the car lane.

I have never lived in London, which appears to be cyclists hell, but the drivers in Zurich are VERY impatient and have pretty bad road rage. (many will not stop at crossing lanes for pedestrians and yes, a 4 year old on a wooden cycle is a pedestrian!) Frankly, if you insist on driving within the city and can't spare an extra minute to deal with the bikers on the road, maybe it is time to reconsider the real problem.
Yep road rage is quite bad I have noticed seeing as most of the people wouldnt know a real traffic jam if it hit them in the face. They're all shrinking violets though, never witness a full on out of car dust up like you will see in London almost every day. haha

What is the rule for zebra crossings here by the way? Granted they're not black and white, but yellow and road colour. The non lighted ones? In the UK, my understanding is if a pedestrian is standing at the crossing the car should stop? I have stood and waited 10 cars go past many a time. Is it driver discretion here? It only occured to me as the other day I made a dash for it on a red man , and the driver half hung out the window abusing me. Par for the course I gave as good as I got, but just wondered whether the bulk egg purchase from Denner is worth it.
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Old 11.09.2012, 20:26
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

I couldn't be fagged to read the whole thread.

I get to and from work by bike each morning - cyclists who don't observe things like traffic lights, zebra crossings do get on my tits. My journey takes me through this crossing - where a train track leads into the tram repair yard.

http://goo.gl/maps/CjFO9

Getting across this on a bike is a bit of a challenge especially in ice or in the wet, and to be honest I've given up on motorists giving you a bit of leeway - far to many near misses esp. with motorists too busy gabbing on their mobiles. I just ride around the curve of the track onto the pavement opposite, then cross it a bit further up. Not quite legal but I'd rather get a fine than end up under the wheels of a cement truck.

The cycle lanes here are ok but certainly not as extensive as the ones in the Netherlands - where many cycle lanes are separated from the traffic. I so far don't dare cycle in Zurich city centre - too many reports of cyclists getting squished at Stauffacher etc.

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 12.09.2012, 09:41
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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2 Le trottoir est réservé aux piétons,
footpaths are for the exclusive use of pedestrians, that's pretty clear
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Old 12.09.2012, 09:57
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

The worst are large groups of joggers who decide (or not) at the last moment to move to one side of the path or the other when faced with an approaching cyclist. It's a lot easier for them to change direction at the last moment than it is for me, I almost got forced into the hedge by a group of young guys, expecting them to move a little sooner than they did. Dickheads.
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Old 12.09.2012, 10:38
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Re: Cyclists who don't use cycle lanes

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footpaths are for the exclusive use of pedestrians, that's pretty clear
The "footpath" bit is clear. Thanks Mr Obvious, but what about that one: (which seems to be exactly for the "traffic" rules: where one is suppose to drive:


Art. 43
Répartition de la circulation
1 Les véhicules automobiles et les cycles n’emprunteront pas les chemins qui ne se prêtent pas ou ne sont manifestement pas destinés à leur circulation
,

It's all in the "manifestement pas", I will argue that when the side of the road if 2.5 meters large, easily, it's not obviously only for "walkers". There it seems that "path" "se prête a leur circulation" (could be use by cyclist).


Anyway I have in mind a clear road and they have probably adapted the rules because there's approx 150 meters on that large sidewalk where both walkers and cyclists can go. It's indicated only at the "beginning" by a yellow bike sign on the floor.

Then there's no marking, and later at the end of the 150m, there's some yellow line turning into the road. Then it's clearly a bike lane, on the road.
The sideway still being very large, but this time there's a clear cycle path...


So:
1) The marking is fecked up/not so clear, especially if you "join" that sideway in the middle (there are intersections)

2)It's extremely dangerous for the cycles because to make that "bike path" (ie some lines in the road), they had to make a "bend" and reduce the road.

I have already witnessed a cyclist being scared to hell and slightly hit by a stup1d woman driver, discussing with a colleague, who just kept going straight ignoring that bend and hitting the guy slightly. (no fall, just noise and he got moved, probably a side hit)...
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