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  #41  
Old 20.08.2012, 21:24
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Re: nationalism in CERN

Not really:

Staff members, Students and most Fellows recruited by CERN come from the Member States. A limited number of scientists from Non-Member State countries are accepted within the Associates and Fellows Programme.

https://ert.cern.ch/browse_www/wd_po...1&p_text_id=10

So in theory the number of outsiders is very small.
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  #42  
Old 20.08.2012, 21:34
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Not really:

Staff members, Students and most Fellows recruited by CERN come from the Member States. A limited number of scientists from Non-Member State countries are accepted within the Associates and Fellows Programme.

https://ert.cern.ch/browse_www/wd_po...1&p_text_id=10

So in theory the number of outsiders is very small.
Idefix, stop talking about what you don't have a clue of. You pretend to live in Geneva - you know that CERN is there too? Just visit CERN and get informed. But be careful: half of it is on french (EU) soil!

EDIT: I'm swiss but understanding that we're in the middle of Europe, in all regards!
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  #43  
Old 20.08.2012, 21:35
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Not really:

Staff members, Students and most Fellows recruited by CERN come from the Member States. A limited number of scientists from Non-Member State countries are accepted within the Associates and Fellows Programme.

https://ert.cern.ch/browse_www/wd_po...1&p_text_id=10

So in theory the number of outsiders is very small.
In practice however the percentage of "outsiders" is roughly 37%
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  #44  
Old 20.08.2012, 21:41
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Re: nationalism in CERN

Not only I don't pretend to live in Geneva, I also live there in real life!

As for stepping into EU soil...
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  #45  
Old 22.08.2012, 09:45
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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living standard, salaries, savings, better supermarket food, polite people, working opportunities, safer roads, incredible public transport, etc etc etc... Switzerland beats them all.
From my perspective, I would say many of these issues are debatable and are in no way clear cut.

BTW, I cannot see any substance in your argument regarding CERN's recruiting policies.
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  #46  
Old 22.08.2012, 09:48
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Not only I don't pretend to live in Geneva, I also live there in real life!
So reading between the lines, you live locally and want a job at CERN, but don't meet the nationality rules.

Such is life.....
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  #47  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:09
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Re: nationalism in CERN

What's the fuss about? There is a investment shared by participating member countries, and they decide who let in and who not. So what?
Like mentioned, here in CH you are not entitled for some jobs if you are not Swiss (in IT it's related to banking secrecy, for example), you don't get some jobs if you don't come from right set of countries (work permit queues) and so on. It doesn't matter that much how good you are.
We are guests here, and our hosts decide rules what's best for them. We can disagree, but it's their right. At least CERN is honest in reply and reasons that many employers here also apply (regarding permit quota system, so nationality after all).
Show some respect
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  #48  
Old 22.08.2012, 14:46
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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And your point is?

Still it is mostly EU members club



And my anti-EU groove is not personal, it's rather global/realistic groove.
What about using a correct map ? Switzerland and Norway are NOT EU members while Ireland and Romania are ! And when CERN started in the 1950ies, Ireland, UnitedKingdom, Austria and Sweden were NOT EU but
EFTA members. EFTA is still existing with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland as members
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  #49  
Old 22.08.2012, 14:47
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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What about using a correct map ? Switzerland and Norway are NOT EU members while Ireland and Romania are ! And when CERN started in the 1950ies, Ireland, UnitedKingdom, Austria and Sweden were NOT EU but
EFTA members. EFTA is still existing with Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Iceland as members
That's a map of the CERN member states, not the EU member states.
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  #50  
Old 22.08.2012, 15:08
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Everything?

You have excellent, educated, smart people whose countries are not members of CERN and they can contribute GREATLY in the program but they are excluded? Why, is this some rich friends club? I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.

http://council.web.cern.ch/council/en/MemberStates.html

It is NOT from the E.U. but dates back to 1953 and had most EFTA countries
as founding members. But as any international organisations it prefers member countries

************************************************** *******************************

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That's a map of the CERN member states, not the EU member states.
Alright. Then here for the comparison, the EU states





************************************************** ************

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There is no way that you will have more scientists and developers in the EU compared to the rest of the world. Yes, educational levels and number of qualified people ratio will be smaller, but confining yourself only to the EU members area is plain stupid when it comes to science RD.

And why would the CH go down with the EU...Were you around the baking crisis etc...Was there an effect to CH from this? I don't think so. And admit it, you are way better living here compared to living in the EU.
Switzerland was even heavily affected by the banking crisis. CS only survived thanks to an investment done by Kuwait, and UBS had to be saved by the Confederation.

CERN will recruit whomever required from outside their area if they do not find enough specialists. And apparently already in the past have done so.

It is not "confining" the scope to the CERN area but preferring people from the CERN area (again, NOT the EU area)

And Switzerland may not be an EU member but it is linked with the EU through the Bilaterals (1994-2012) and the Free-Trade-Association with the EEC/EU of about 1982. The Swiss National Bank owns so many Euros, that a crash of that currency would be a disaster.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 22.08.2012 at 15:22.
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  #51  
Old 22.08.2012, 20:09
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Not only I don't pretend to live in Geneva, I also live there in real life!

As for stepping into EU soil...
Speaking as a scientist, it is incredibly hard to get an university job outside of your home country (unless you get research papers in very high journals!). Work permits can be a long and painful process, and there are usually an excess of people who will fill the roles available. Look at job postings for American post-doc position often they say only US citizens (or green card holders) can apply.

Also, there are a lot of people with PhDs in the EU and not a lot of good jobs out there, so I feel it is right that nationals are hired that come from paying member states first. Yes it is protectionism.....but tell me that other countries around the world will not do that!

On a side note, CERN do hire some people from outside. And those will hopefully be the top of their field. So it is not a members only club
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  #52  
Old 22.08.2012, 23:52
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Math?!?! Is that like maths only without the 's' for sensible?

<hides>
Slightly off topic but "math" and "maths" are both valid. Math is more common in NA and maths in the UK and Ireland.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/math-or-maths/

This whole thread seems to be to be a storm in a tea cup.
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  #53  
Old 07.11.2020, 11:37
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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Not only I don't pretend to live in Geneva, I also live there in real life!

As for stepping into EU soil...
How is the "EU is going down" prophecy going on?
I read this prophecy in many places online since at least 10 years...at the moment the only country that seems on the brink of collapse is the UK...
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  #54  
Old 07.11.2020, 13:08
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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How is the "EU is going down" prophecy going on?
I read this prophecy in many places online since at least 10 years...at the moment the only country that seems on the brink of collapse is the UK...

As slow day or what? IDEFIX was banned a few years ago.... so I doubt they'll answer your question...
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  #55  
Old 07.11.2020, 13:53
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Re: nationalism in CERN

The question is still very valid- Idefix or not.
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  #56  
Old 07.11.2020, 14:24
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Re: nationalism in CERN

Do we need another Brexit and/or anti-EU discussion?
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  #57  
Old 07.11.2020, 14:26
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Re: nationalism in CERN

probably not- and yet. CERN is a huge symbol - and for the UK (and until recent referendum Switzerland) Brexit, especially with No Deal- would isolate it from vast numbers of EU academic and research projects and other stuff like Intelligence sharing.
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  #58  
Old 07.11.2020, 14:47
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Re: nationalism in CERN

When you look at the top German car export destinations, UK is closely behind only US and China. And per capita it it must be also one of the leading importers. Hardly a symptom of an economic collapse.

Leading import countries for motor vehicles from Germany in 2019, by value of exports
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  #59  
Old 08.11.2020, 23:52
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Re: nationalism in CERN

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When you look at the top German car export destinations, UK is closely behind only US and China. And per capita it it must be also one of the leading importers. Hardly a symptom of an economic collapse.

Leading import countries for motor vehicles from Germany in 2019, by value of exports
Is that what brexiteers are now finding solace in? at first it was all about "they need us more than we need them, they're gonna s*** our c*** and sign a deal fast". Clearly expectations must be running low if the consolation is that "things are fine, we are the third largest importer of german cars"
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Old 09.11.2020, 08:17
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Re: nationalism in CERN

Well the current US president promised Bozo and co a beautiful bigly trade deal. A trade deal like you have never seen in the history of bigly trade deals.

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Is that what brexiteers are now finding solace in? at first it was all about "they need us more than we need them, they're gonna s*** our c*** and sign a deal fast". Clearly expectations must be running low if the consolation is that "things are fine, we are the third largest importer of german cars"
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