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ProstoLosj 20.08.2012 17:30

nationalism in CERN
 
I was very surprised that I'm not eligible even to apply to work in CERN. Because I'm not in the list of allowed nationalities.
WTF? :msnmad:

Quote:

The eligibility of your application is in fact based on your nationality, and not on your place of residence. CERN is an International Organization and is financed by 20 Member States. According to our Rules and Regulations, we are therefore unable to consider applications for staff posts from candidates who do not have one of these nationalities.
For your information, you can find a list of CERN Member States here:
https://ert.cern.ch/browse_www/wd_po...1&p_text_id=10

Snoopy 20.08.2012 17:37

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
I guess they provide jobs for people coming from the countries that finance it. What's wrong with that?

If you haven't paid your dues, you are not a member.

idefix 20.08.2012 17:43

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy (Post 1640305)
What's wrong with that?

Everything?

You have excellent, educated, smart people whose countries are not members of CERN and they can contribute GREATLY in the program but they are excluded? Why, is this some rich friends club? I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.

ProstoLosj 20.08.2012 17:50

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640315)
You have excellent, educated, smart people whose countries are not members of CERN and they can contribute GREATLY in the program but they are excluded? Why, is this some rich friends club? I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.

You read my mind! Thank you for understanding.
I never imagine before my nationality can be a problem.

CorsebouTheReturn 20.08.2012 17:54

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ProstoLosj (Post 1640329)
You read my mind! Thank you for understanding.
I never imagine before my nationality can be a problem.

It is sometimes! for "sensitive" works, they can legally restrict nationalities.
Ex: working for defence department in UK, one must have British nationality.

Or even here, it's not possible to work in some jobs.
Or they give free training only if you have Swiss nationality.


I don't know the CERN details, and I don't know if it's discriminatory or not... I guess it depends how they get their money?
Let's say if they are only funded by X or Y countries then I could understand that they only hire X or Y people... a kind of partnership? (ie they pay for a reason)

Motorschweitz 20.08.2012 17:55

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Is it only for certain positions or something? I know of Americans who work there, for example, and they aren't on the list.

Edit: I just read the fine print underneath the list:

Staff members, Students and most Fellows recruited by CERN come from the Member States. A limited number of scientists from Non-Member State countries are accepted within the Associates and Fellows Programme.

Romania is a candidate to become a Member State of CERN and therefore Romanian nationals are eligible to apply for Student, Associate and Fellow programmes.

Israel and Serbia are Associate Member States and therefore Israeli & Serbian nationals are eligible to apply for Staff positions as well as Student, Associate and Fellow programmes.

Snoopy 20.08.2012 18:09

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640315)
Everything?

You have excellent, educated, smart people whose countries are not members of CERN and they can contribute GREATLY in the program but they are excluded? Why, is this some rich friends club? I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.


Government money always comes with a price. Why would they finance jobs for other nationalities if there are enough of their own looking for jobs. Judging by recent events it would appear that the strategy is working ok.

Snoopy 20.08.2012 18:10

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ProstoLosj (Post 1640329)
I never imagine before my nationality can be a problem.

What planet have you been on until now????
Nationality is virtually always an issue when you are looking for a job other than in your own country....

ProstoLosj 20.08.2012 18:16

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

What planet have you been on until now????
I'm from Mars :msngrin:

bluecherry 20.08.2012 18:22

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Isn't it the same with ESA?

miniMia 20.08.2012 18:33

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640315)
Everything?

You have excellent, educated, smart people whose countries are not members of CERN and they can contribute GREATLY in the program but they are excluded? Why, is this some rich friends club? I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.

Maybe there are enough people from member countries that are HIGHLY qualified and can GREATLY contribute to the program. :rolleyes:

idefix 20.08.2012 18:38

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miniMia (Post 1640386)
Maybe there are enough people from member countries that are HIGHLY qualified and can GREATLY contribute to the program. :rolleyes:

You can not compare member countries with 300 milion (estimate) people and rest of the world with 6 billion people...Ther eis no way that you will have more highly qualified people in those 300 million compared to the rest of the world... Especially in a segment dedicated to science and development...

And that is why the EU and the EUR are going down really fast and really bad...

quark 20.08.2012 18:46

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Sometimes it's not even a case of having the right nationality - it can be also be a case of not having the wrong nationality.

A friend of mine with US nationality was effectively fired on the first day of working for a laboratory (weakly) linked to US defence, because he refused to renounce his UK citizenship.

Anyway, the CERN situation is slightly more complicated than the OP makes out:

Students:
Quote:

Is there a nationality restriction on candidates wishing to apply for the Doctoral Students Programme?
This programme is open to all nationals of the CERN Member States. Nationals of the non-Member States can however apply if they have been residing in a Member State for at least the last five years (at the time of the application).
General Fellows:
Quote:

What are the nationality restrictions on candidates wishing to apply for the Fellows Programme?
There are NO nationality restrictions for candidates applying for a Fellowship. It is true that the majority of Fellows come from the Member States, but since CERN aims to attract candidates who are the best in their field, Fellows come from all over the world - we currently have Fellows from 45 different countries.
Other special programs for non-member countries:https://hr-recruit.web.cern.ch/hr-re...al/special.asp


Map of where CERN users come from:
https://mediastream.cern.ch/MediaArc...at-144-dpi.jpg

Sean Connery 20.08.2012 18:47

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ProstoLosj (Post 1640292)
I was very surprised that I'm not eligible even to apply to work in CERN. Because I'm not in the list of allowed nationalities.
WTF? :msnmad:

Selective reading?

Staff members, Students and most Fellows recruited by CERN come from the Member States. A limited number of scientists from Non-Member State countries are accepted within the Associates and Fellows Programme.

Faltrad 20.08.2012 18:54

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640394)
Ther eis no way that you will have more highly qualified people in those 300 million compared to the rest of the world...

They don't need to have more of them than the rest of the world, they just need to have enough to cover their staffing needs.

idefix 20.08.2012 19:01

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltrad (Post 1640407)
They don't need to have more of them than the rest of the world, they just need to have enough to cover their staffing needs.

Yes I see, more concerned over staffing needs rather the qualitative output in the development sector, typical EU bureaucratic mindset.

Faltrad 20.08.2012 19:13

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640413)
Yes I see, more concerned over staffing needs rather the qualitative output in the development sector, typical EU bureaucratic mindset.

I have no idea if they hire the right people, you must have a very good reason to think that you do. I take your word for it, no problem.

mirfield 20.08.2012 19:22

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
They have Professor Brian Cox. Anyone else is really just making up the numbers*.



* Not literally, of course**
** I hope

quark 20.08.2012 19:56

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640315)
I thought CERN was about science and development and not another bureaucratic ****hole made from the EU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640394)
And that is why the EU and the EUR are going down really fast and really bad...

Quote:

Originally Posted by idefix (Post 1640413)
Yes I see, more concerned over staffing needs rather the qualitative output in the development sector, typical EU bureaucratic mindset.

Just to momentarily interrupt your anti-EU groove on this thread, but I just want to point out that if you have a look at the CERN member lists for Switzerland and Norway (they're there) and Ireland and the Baltic states (they're not)...

idefix 20.08.2012 20:07

Re: nationalism in CERN
 
And your point is?

Still it is mostly EU members club

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ber_states.svg

And my anti-EU groove is not personal, it's rather global/realistic groove.


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