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  #21  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:26
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Re: German Course rip off

I can imagine an anglophone somewhat surviving with a dictionary and some broken knowledge of another anglosaxon language when paddling through a leaflet,while say a Turk or Estonian probably having a bit harder time. I dont really mind, it was even more hardcore here with French and it pushes one learn fast
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  #22  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:29
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Re: German Course rip off

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So you didn't see the sentence I wrote:
(in German, here it would be good to have more languages)

They have Flyers in 13 different languages. I'm giving this information out and some people have the audacity to still nag.

Yes, crazygringo, they could maybe simply offering the translated documents. Most probably they are planning to do so as there is a continous process of official websites and documents being translated. Maybe there are some more important projects underway. You don't know it, I don't know it.

It's better to think the worst of the "powers" because they don't have what you need right now and right here.

How can someone be bothered to take a huge effort and call a number from the website. Or asking on englishforum.ch.
I don't think anything of the "powers that be", here nor anywhere else. I accepted when I moved here that the language - especially in the German-speaking part of the country - is a shibboleth, and it is apparently a time-honored rite of passage for "foreigners" to have to brave the elements to try and figure it out. but I would never hold it against others who might be hoping an easier way existed, especially those who are indicating an effort to learn - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that language resources could be better coordinated here, although I appreciate that the whole situation subsidizes an entire cottage industry.
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  #23  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:38
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Re: German Course rip off

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From a marketing standpoint it's a mistake in my opinion.
Of course, but I doubt there is any marketing as such. Apparently, AOZ is a government-financed organisation, and from how they present themselves on their page, I guess they are more directed towards poorer immigrants from "lesser developed countries"; people, who are not expected to search for German courses on the internet. So their website is aimed at German speaking social workers etc., who want to order flyers for their clients.
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  #24  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:46
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Re: German Course rip off

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I don't think anything of the "powers that be", here nor anywhere else. I accepted when I moved here that the language - especially in the German-speaking part of the country - is a shibboleth, and it is apparently a time-honored rite of passage for "foreigners" to have to brave the elements to try and figure it out. but I would never hold it against others who might be hoping an easier way existed, especially those who are indicating an effort to learn - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that language resources could be better coordinated here, although I appreciate that the whole situation subsidizes an entire cottage industry.
I guess you missed the part where they offer language courses at a reasonable price with free childcare. Maybe you go to the Gemeinde Affoltern and tell them.
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Old 21.08.2012, 23:46
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Re: German Course rip off

either the powers that be want to encourage "foreigners" to learn an official language, or they don't.[/QUOTE]

i think it's more that they truly do not grasp how hard it is for adults to learn a new language and they don't make allowances accordingly. mind you i have noticed that most official german correspondance, flyers etc. are written in a cryptic style that seems intended to hinder rather than facilitate communication. compared to the much clearer german in newspapers or on blogs, it is almost another language. I hated this aspect of learning the language, the feeling of just not understanding and that someone is taking advantage by being purposely complex . I try not to take it to heart now andi can stand up for myself a little when required.
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  #26  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:52
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Re: German Course rip off

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I guess you missed the part where they offer language courses at a reasonable price with free childcare. Maybe you go to the Gemeinde Affoltern and tell them.
we're going in a circle, the courses and childcare are offered in German, which I think is what got the OP into the trouble that lead to the start of this thread.



again, I didn't expect free language lessons or free childcare when I moved here. but I'm also not going to take the piss out of posters who want to air a grievance or two regarding their struggles with the language barrier. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why this forum is in English and why it exists in the first place, oder?
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  #27  
Old 22.08.2012, 00:04
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Re: German Course rip off

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we're going in a circle, the courses and childcare are offered in German, which I think is what got the OP into the trouble that lead to the start of this thread.
Yes, and I just pointed out that this information is incorrect as the flyer is available in 13 different languages. And there were a few posters venting about this without even having a look at the linked page.



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again, I didn't expect free language lessons or free childcare when I moved here. but I'm also not going to take the piss out of posters who want to air a grievance or two regarding their struggles with the language barrier. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why this forum is in English and why it exists in the first place, oder?
For sure. And the OP is always welcome to attend the German Conversation Group on wednesdays in Zurich.
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  #28  
Old 22.08.2012, 00:09
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Re: German Course rip off

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Deutsch A2.1 Deutsch für Fortgeschrittene

Montag 13.45 – 15.15 Uhr und Mittwoch 08.30 – 10.00 Uhr,
mit GRATIS-Kinderbetreuung für Personen aus Affoltern a.A. *
Familienzentrum, Zürichstrasse 136, 8910 Affoltern a.A.


Kosten CHF 260.– für den ganzen Kurs inkl. Kursbücher

* Für Teilnehmende, welche nicht in Affoltern a.A. wohnen, kostet die Kinderbetreuung CHF 460.– pro Kind und Kurs. Kinder unter
18 Monaten kosten CHF 690.–. Die Übernahme dieser Kosten kann bei der Wohngemeinde beantragt werden.



link to full page : http://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/content/...n_am_Albis.pdf
This is what google translate makes of it:

German A2.1 Advanced German

Monday 13.45 - 15.15 clock and Wednesday 08.30 - 10.00 clock,
with FREE child care for people from Affoltern aA *
Family Center, Zurich 136, 8910 Affoltern aA


Costs CHF 260 - for the whole course including course books

* For participants who do not Affoltern aA live, the child care costs CHF 460 - per child per course. Children under
18 months cost CHF 690th -. The acquisition of these costs may be requested from the local community.


Maybe it is better to translate a text first before signing up. Ridiculous to complain and claim that the text is misleading.
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  #29  
Old 22.08.2012, 00:13
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Re: German Course rip off

To be fair, it's not an absolute beginners course. It seems reasonable to expect the target audience to mostly understand the relatively simple German, especially the bit about flyers in other languages.
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  #30  
Old 22.08.2012, 00:42
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Re: German Course rip off

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To be fair, it's not an absolute beginners course. It seems reasonable to expect the target audience to mostly understand the relatively simple German, especially the bit about flyers in other languages.
To be clear, the target audition is mostly women from not english speaking countries with only limited income. They get the flyers handed out in their own language. The target is to enable them to learn the basics to communicate without having to depend on someone else. Something which is far easier for english speakers because a lot of people speak it here. The courses are well attended. If you can apply on the internet maybe you will only have people in the courses who have a) computer skills and b) maybe could afford to pay for a regular language course.
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Old 22.08.2012, 01:46
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Re: German Course rip off

I think the flyer is confusing in that some people would assume the childcare costs less than the German course, so the 460/690 looks like a total figure, even though the language itself is clear.

I did an a1 course at the same place in Affoltern 3 years ago now. It was fine but painfully slow - the majority of the course participants could speak some German but could not fluently read and write the alphabet and had not learned a second language before. The creche was very good though.

Some of my friends on the course moved to Ecap in Zurich, which has free/cheap childcare, and they're happy with it. After my youngest started kindergarten I joined the migros klubschule in Zug, found it very good and have since passed B2.
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Old 22.08.2012, 09:11
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Re: German Course rip off

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The target is to enable them to learn the basics to communicate without having to depend on someone else.
Would that not be the A1 course?
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  #33  
Old 22.08.2012, 10:34
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Re: German Course rip off

There seem to be some phobia regarding the utilization of English even when all evolved speak it.
Leaving the admission part aside, I have witnessed some entertaining scenes in A2,B1 courses where the teacher is struggling for several minutes to demonstrate words such as "loyalty" or "jealousy", and the whole class is just staring helplessly at the teacher as he's trying some desperate mime gestures, telling stories which might shed some light on the meaning but create even more misunderstandings when we intercept the wrong word from the story.

Luckily it all ends with one girl with a pocket translator whispering "jealousy", and the whole class exhales in relief (teacher included).

P.S. I have dared to write a feedback comment asking the school if they could supply the vocabulary sheets in English and there was no response. I guess they're still in a state of shock.
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  #34  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:13
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Re: German Course rip off

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There seem to be some phobia regarding the utilization of English even when all evolved speak it.
Leaving the admission part aside, I have witnessed some entertaining scenes in A2,B1 courses where the teacher is struggling for several minutes to demonstrate words such as "loyalty" or "jealousy", and the whole class is just staring helplessly at the teacher as he's trying some desperate mime gestures, telling stories which might shed some light on the meaning but create even more misunderstandings when we intercept the wrong word from the story.

Luckily it all ends with one girl with a pocket translator whispering "jealousy", and the whole class exhales in relief (teacher included).

P.S. I have dared to write a feedback comment asking the school if they could supply the vocabulary sheets in English and there was no response. I guess they're still in a state of shock.
in fairness, sometimes this is because (a) the other person doesn't know the English translation for the word, or (b) there is no "pure" translation of the word into English. and of course just like in English there are some words or expressions where the context and inflection in how it is said makes a world of difference.
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  #35  
Old 22.08.2012, 13:13
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Re: German Course rip off

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in fairness, sometimes this is because (a) the other person doesn't know the English translation for the word, or (b) there is no "pure" translation of the word into English. and of course just like in English there are some words or expressions where the context and inflection in how it is said makes a world of difference.
I've studied with two teachers who, whenever possible, whenever he/she knew the translation, gave a short translation in English or in French. I found it to be useful and efficient.
Regarding (b), I think my dis-qualifier "whenever possible" covers it. Absolutely, when taken to an absurd level, it will become an impossibility.
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  #36  
Old 25.08.2012, 09:29
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Re: German Course rip off

I faced the same situation but i did not pay the additional amount because it was so much. Instead, I called up my Gemeinde and asked what to do they told me that they can transfer me to another course in a neighboring gemeinde which offers the same course with childcare for the same rate (CHF 260) around 15 minutes drive. I had to call AOZ to check for availability, I also suggest you talk to the company which provided the courses directly they were so helpful (AOZ) in my case.
Hope this helps.
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  #37  
Old 25.08.2012, 10:44
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Re: German Course rip off

Thanks. We're in the process of speaking to the geminde.
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