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Old 25.08.2012, 12:30
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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In any case, that is crazy! Is this ban on using horns at any time other than to avert danger enshrined in Swiss law? I would have thought that the law was for something like "it is obligatory to use your car horn if the guy in front of you takes longer than 0.25 seconds to move off when the traffic lights turn green" because that accounts for around 99% of the cases of when I've heard a car beep.
I think it's the same over most of Europe. In the UK the highway code states:

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Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively.
In the case of the Swiss I think it's similar, so actually, using your horn to "warn" the cyclists in front of you would seem to be justified. After all, cyclists don't have rearview mirrors.

I think the groan you received was a little unfair, seeing as it was only a suggestion, and a suggestion which wasn't so far-fetched.
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Old 25.08.2012, 12:40
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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What happens, though, is that these people will not move over by one inch to allow me to pass them.
I don't think an inch would be quite enough and having been run off the road by folk 'overtaking' me, if I don't think there is really room (especially uphill) to pass me safely (I mean safe for me, not safe for the car) then I, too, ride more to the middle of the track so that the driver just doesn't get ideas...

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After all, cyclists don't have rearview mirrors.
I do! Because, odd as it may sound, I don't always hear cars behind me - especially the more considerate ones who 'jog' behind me instead of revving up. Particularly in gusty weather, I cannot hear anything but the wind.

I agree that cyclists can be a pain in the neck to drivers when they prevent cars overtaking but cars who overtake me and then promptly slow down drastically to turn left or right give me a pain in the neck too.
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  #23  
Old 25.08.2012, 12:44
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

Thank you all, I appreciate your feedback.

BTW I am talking about the Zugersee (will update my profile) and there is only enough room to pass if people move to the very edge of the road.

Despite the fact that I find these cyclists' behaviour annoying, I am indeed wondering if this is in fact something unique to the Swiss psyche. My theory is somewhere along the lines of the Fritz syndrome described by one of you fellow posters above. A combination of A) exercising one's right to ride one's bike at that time on that road at any speed one wants and B) unabashed egotism with no consideration for other individuals whatsoever.

But I will try some of your suggestions and particularly like the one about passing them and driving slowly in front of them. Quite a non-aggressive way to send a signal...
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Old 25.08.2012, 12:49
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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Thank you all, I appreciate your feedback.

BTW I am talking about the Zugersee (will update my profile) and there is only enough room to pass if people move to the very edge of the road.

Despite the fact that I find these cyclists' behaviour annoying, I am indeed wondering if this is in fact something unique to the Swiss psyche. My theory is somewhere along the lines of the Fritz syndrome described by one of you fellow posters above. A combination of A) exercising one's right to ride one's bike at that time on that road at any speed one wants and B) unabashed egotism with no consideration for other individuals whatsoever.

But I will try some of your suggestions and particularly like the one about passing them and driving slowly in front of them. Quite a non-aggressive way to send a signal...
If you think riding two-abreast with no thought for the 73 cars crawling along behind you is unique to the Swiss psyche you mustn't have travelled much.

Try driving around the Lake District in the UK in summer or around the coastal roads of Corsica (to name but two cases) and you will see this phenomenon is pretty widespread.
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Old 25.08.2012, 12:49
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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Oh dear. I receive my first groan on this forum. I am so disappointed that it was over something so mundane and pretty innocent. I should have just said "tail him and scare the sh*t out of these damn road-hog cyclists" - at least then, I would have felt the groan was well-deserved.

In any case, that is crazy! Is this ban on using horns at any time other than to avert danger enshrined in Swiss law? I would have thought that the law was for something like "it is obligatory to use your car horn if the guy in front of you takes longer than 0.25 seconds to move off when the traffic lights turn green" because that accounts for around 99% of the cases of when I've heard a car beep.


Oh Dear, at least the truth is out 'taîl him - road-hog cyclists'

As far as I know, and from what I have read and heard and understood, yes, the use of the horn other than in emergencies is not allowed in Switzerland. Thank God too. I was in London in May, my hotel room was on a corner by traffic lights. So, as soon as Jock didn't get off to a blitzstart on the first milliseconds of green there was a whole orchestra playing. And in London traffic carries on through the night. There are plenty of other countries too that I can think of where residents are surrounded by impatience. For that's what it is.

If on a country road you have to wait a few or more seconds to achieve the speed you think you should be doing, so what, aren't you human enough - is life really so demanding that a few or more seconds respecting other people are counted as wastetime? The cyclist isn't after all, at least not to the same extent as the motorist; polluting the air, making a noise, using up natural resources, taking up the amount of individual space that a motorist is, and so on.

I know, I know. But let's be sensible, do we really want to live in a world where only speed and so-called efficiency count at the cost of the human factor?
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Old 25.08.2012, 12:54
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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BTW I am talking about the Zugersee (will update my profile) and there is only enough room to pass if people move to the very edge of the road.
Do you ever cycle down that road yourself? Take a good look at that narrow side bit you want the cyclists to use. Broken bottles and/or the bits of glass left from a very minor accident involving headlights, little piles of grit left over from the last surfacing, small ridges and holes caused by subsidence, stones, uneven edges to gratings... as a cyclist you never know what you are going to get...
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Old 25.08.2012, 13:13
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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...
a) Fritz is walking today, so bikes and motor vehicles have to give way;
b) Fritz is on his bike, so pedestrians need to move over and motor vehicles, give way;
c) Fritz is driving, so everybody should keep out of the way ..... 'cos he's late and in a hurry.

The problems occur when Fritz encounters all the other Fritzs' ...... and John Smiths', etc.
And the NotAllTheres....
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Old 25.08.2012, 15:03
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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As far as I know, and from what I have read and heard and understood, yes, the use of the horn other than in emergencies is not allowed in Switzerland.
Here's what the law says:

SVG Art. 40

VRV Art. 29

quick translation:
  • drivers should act in a way which doesn't require the use of warning signals (acoustic or visual)
  • unnecessary and excessive warning signals must be avoided
  • warning signals are only allowed for safety reasons
  • driver is required to give acoustic warning signals if playing children do not pay attention to road traffic and before tight turns with bad visibility out of town
  • only visual signals are allowed after dark except for emergencies
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If on a country road you have to wait a few or more seconds to achieve the speed you think you should be doing, so what, aren't you human enough - is life really so demanding that a few or more seconds respecting other people are counted as wastetime?
How about cyclists respecting motorists and moving aside a little to let them pass?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

BTW, riding a bike instead of driving a car doesn't make you a better human being and it doesn't give you some special "rights" beyond what's written in the law either.

Last edited by Mark75; 25.08.2012 at 15:34.
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  #29  
Old 25.08.2012, 15:33
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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But I will try some of your suggestions and particularly like the one about passing them and driving slowly in front of them. Quite a non-aggressive way to send a signal...
Not. It's _very_ aggressive. If you did that to me it would make my blood boil, and albeit that on a bike I'd be unable to retaliate, it would certainly put me in mind to do so. Beware your car paintwork if I catch up with you, sort of thing. And I'm absolutely not a violent person.

That sort of bullying behaviour from car drivers is totally, utterly unacceptable, regardless of circumstances.

To try and address your original question, at least partially, you might like to put yourself in the cyclists place - very often the edges of roads are really not good places for cycling, with stones, broken glass and generally uneven surfaces. The cyclist will therefore rend to ride in what's known in cycling circles as the Primary Position, i.e. the centre of the lane. It's the best and safest place to be.

When, or rather if, it's possible to move over to let you pass without compromising their road position and safety or slowing down, then they should do so, but it's their decision to make, not yours.

If they do move over then they're doing you a favour and deserve a friendly thank you wave. If they don't then it's probably because they don't feel it's safe or appropriate to do so.
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Old 25.08.2012, 15:40
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

ACE1 you have it spot on, the number of replies on here that think the car has some sort of rights that the bike rider doesn't. Totally agree with your comments there are many times when if I don't think its safe to ride close to the edge I will purposely move over into the middle of the lane and make sure I completely occupy the lane.

I often do this on approaching a round about so that I get a safe line and the cars can wait until I think it is safe to let them past.

Also agree that if a car intentionally tries to go slow to wind you up just for the sake of it then I have a pump and brake handles make a lovely mark on the edge of nice paint work
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  #31  
Old 25.08.2012, 15:42
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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Screw 'em, pass them, and then stop, they'll get the message!

Tom
you forgot 'reverse' as the last step
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Old 25.08.2012, 15:46
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

if it is a really long road, knocking him over and then checking he is OK might actually be faster than following him all the way provided the distance to go is enough to amortise the lost time from knocking him over.
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Old 25.08.2012, 16:32
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

I have always found the small BBQ sauce satchet/pots from McDonalds useful in such situations.

Granted, it is a waste of perfectly good sauce
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  #34  
Old 25.08.2012, 16:47
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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BTW I am talking about the Zugersee (will update my profile) and there is only enough room to pass if people move to the very edge of the road.
In other words it's not safe to pass a bike without going dangerously close. Sounds like I also wouldn't let you past - I am happy to move aside where there is sufficient width to do so but I will not endanger myself just so you can save a few seconds. I always cycle at least 60 cm from the side of the road so I have a possible escape when some idiot car driver decides to cut me up.

BTW when I'm going downhill guess how many cars move aside to let me past althoiugh I am usually considerably faster?

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How about cyclists respecting motorists and moving aside a little to let them pass?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

BTW, riding a bike instead of driving a car doesn't make you a better human being and it doesn't give you some special "rights" beyond what's written in the law either.
Driving a car instead of a bike also doesn't give you any special rights either you know. How about waiting until it is safe to pass?
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Old 25.08.2012, 16:50
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

We live in a quiet village loads of bikes are on the street they ride all next to each other blocking the street refusing to move I rev my engine a little so they can hear me so they move. They recently painted a bike lane bright yellow but they must be blind because they don't use it
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Old 25.08.2012, 20:46
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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Not. It's _very_ aggressive. If you did that to me it would make my blood boil, and albeit that on a bike I'd be unable to retaliate, it would certainly put me in mind to do so. Beware your car paintwork if I catch up with you, sort of thing. And I'm absolutely not a violent person.

That sort of bullying behaviour from car drivers is totally, utterly unacceptable, regardless of circumstances.

To try and address your original question, at least partially, you might like to put yourself in the cyclists place - very often the edges of roads are really not good places for cycling, with stones, broken glass and generally uneven surfaces. The cyclist will therefore rend to ride in what's known in cycling circles as the Primary Position, i.e. the centre of the lane. It's the best and safest place to be.

When, or rather if, it's possible to move over to let you pass without compromising their road position and safety or slowing down, then they should do so, but it's their decision to make, not yours.

If they do move over then they're doing you a favour and deserve a friendly thank you wave. If they don't then it's probably because they don't feel it's safe or appropriate to do so.
This post is so BS it made me angry .
It is the typical arrogant bicycle behavior that gets car drivers riled up. a thank you wave ....because you are blocking my way by driving next to each other (remember that is the type of cyclist we are talking about here, not the ones that go in a single lane)
you make it sound like the biker is the king of the road making all decisions, however imo it is the cars choice cause he sees what is going on, he sees the on coming traffic, whats behind them , on the side etc. Bikers dont use bike paths cause "they are not suitable" HA give me a break they just dont want to use them as they are not as fast or as even as the road surface.

As far as the bullying behavior ....it is the biker being the bully taking all "decision making" in his/her hands. not the car.

As far as your remark about the paint work on a car i'd advice you to be VERY careful with that as In my case there would be serious consequences. you don't touch someone car it is a simple as that.

primary position bs in the center of the lane. you should be on the side of the lane and nowhere else or on the bike path. If the car cannot safely pass you they will know.
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  #37  
Old 25.08.2012, 21:32
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

When you have the bicycle thing figured out, can you start researching why people walking on the sidewalk side-by-side don't move for people coming the other direction
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  #38  
Old 25.08.2012, 21:35
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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When you have the bicycle thing figured out, can you start researching why people walking on the sidewalk side-by-side don't move for people coming the other direction

its because they have to asses the situation and not give up their primary position
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Old 25.08.2012, 21:42
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

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This post is so BS it made me angry .
It is the typical arrogant bicycle behavior that gets car drivers riled up. a thank you wave ....because you are blocking my way by driving next to each other (remember that is the type of cyclist we are talking about here, not the ones that go in a single lane)
you make it sound like the biker is the king of the road making all decisions, however imo it is the cars choice cause he sees what is going on, he sees the on coming traffic, whats behind them , on the side etc. Bikers dont use bike paths cause "they are not suitable" HA give me a break they just dont want to use them as they are not as fast or as even as the road surface.

As far as the bullying behavior ....it is the biker being the bully taking all "decision making" in his/her hands. not the car.

As far as your remark about the paint work on a car i'd advice you to be VERY careful with that as In my case there would be serious consequences. you don't touch someone car it is a simple as that.

primary position bs in the center of the lane. you should be on the side of the lane and nowhere else or on the bike path. If the car cannot safely pass you they will know.
Where do either the OP or Ace1 even mention cyclists riding side by side here?

FYI the car driver is not the king of the road either. No-one is. You do not have a god given right to go past regardless of the circumstances - you will allso find the law supports this. If i am in front on a narrow road I will decide if it is safe to let you past. I sit higher, can see more and in particular I can see the conditions at the verge - you can't. Please remember most of us bikers are also car drivers and know what it's like from both sides. Most car drivers don't.

Cities may be different but in the country I see far more idiotic behaviour from car drivers.

Oh and if you are behind a bike revving your engine and honking you are clearly the bully.
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Old 25.08.2012, 21:47
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Re: Why (WHY??) wont they move over?

"So when I get home from work I tend to get stuck behind a cyclist or two, which isn't really a problem per se.

What happens, though, is that these people will not move over by one inch to allow me to pass them. They will also not increase their speed let alone pull over whenever there is an opportunity. This does not happen occasionally but literally 95% of the time and really, really annoys me."

Is where I gathered they are driving next to each other.
I used to be a biker, till I got bored with it. Nver said I was the king of the road but from Ace1 post it seemed that bikers think they have the right to make the decisions and that cars should wait behind.
In any case this is a pointless argument as once again either side is gonna give in; much like on the road;..... so whatever

and if you want to play with fire; law or no law; you will get burned since a bike does not match up to a car as there is some wacky people out there that WILL hurt you (not talking about myself here but I have seen some near misses
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