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Old 16.09.2012, 18:27
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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I understand that the Koran was written in an old flowery language, similarly to our Bible. It is now up to religious scholars and leaders to interpret these old writings, and mistakes and distortions can be made. We are lucky as our bible translation was fixed in 1611, and since then there has been very little argument among protestants as to what it all means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Author..._James_Version
If anything, the situation is quite opposite.

The Koran has a history of verbatim oral tradition and was written in a language that eventually became Standard Arabic. The suras were created during two decades and if not by Allah or Muhammad, then at least by a small group of men with a common goal. The process of collecting the Koran after Muhammads death took less than 30 years and was done by people who knew him in person.

Of course, there's still enough room for misunderstandings and uncertainties. But the history of its origin makes the Koran the least mistakable and least contradictory sacred scripture of any of the bigger religions. And thus Islam itself.

The bible, however, is a - seemingly fairly arbitrary - collection of writings from a period of over 500 years (at least!) by various writers with different cultural and linguistic backgrounds. To say the bible as a whole is a bit diffuse and contradictory, would be the understatement of the century. The same is true for Christianity itself. The reason that we usually don't experience it as such, is that Christianity is mainly distributed by big organizations who develop a more or less coherent belief system out of the bible (and diverse religious traditions).

The crux of the matter is that since the Age of Reason in Western Christian countries, society determines religion, or at least rather than vice versa as before. The blessing of gay marriages by the Anglican Church isn't the result of a profound theological consideration, they just go with the zeitgeist and satisfy consumer demands.

Most of the Islamic World, however, has never seen anything like the Enlightenment. For many Muslims, religion is the cornerstone of their community, their family, their life. And it's this what they feel being attacked when someone says something against Mohammed or Islam.
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Old 16.09.2012, 19:55
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Their old Libyan government paid good money for those guns, and for the infrastructure, hospitals, schools, drainage systems, power plants, oil installations and apartment blocks that got wiped out during the bombing.

Why can't the military compounds be repaired and the remaining weapons put back? The country is a democracy now. Aren't they allowed guns? With all that oil they need good defences.

Perhaps 30K Libyans are dead now. Those in the army should be counted too. They are now clearly as human/non-human as the rebels are. Liberation could have been achieved with a drone strike, or a targeted assassination. Far more humane for everyone. 100,000s of people now have a totally disrupted life for the next 10 years, with a once excellent health care system that has been brought down to well below the level of that in the US.

That is why the locales are rioting on the 9/11 anniversary.
You seem to be totally unaware of the current situation in Libya. The newly elected central government in Tripoli is extremely weak, and is trying to train up a new police force. They don't even have that at this stage. Having a democracy doesn't give a magic wand to resorb all problems resulting from the uprising. There's dozens if not hundreds of militias of many hues running around in every town, doing what they please with the weapons taken from army stocks. Some of them are secular, some are religious, some are just local, some are under influence from outside forces, especially ones with lots of money east of Libya. These are the source of the attack on the consulate. "the locals are rioting on 9/11 anniversary" is a sweeping generaiisation that the locals don't agree with! There were demonstrations in Benghazi and Tripoli on Sept 12th by people who were saying they were sorry and it wasn't in their name! Libyans haven't forgotten that the US helped to free themselves of the previous dictato. This got seriously underreported to many people, it didn't suit the narrative.

No one disputes the right for Libya to have armed forces, but getting militias to give up weapons is never easy. Just look at Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia... or France in 1945. And some of those weapons have left the country now to do mischief elsewhere, notably Mali.

As for "liberation through drone strike", that would have the big problem of giving no legimitacy to whoever succeeded Ghadafi. Imagine what the rest of the Arab world would think! To say nothing of some in the West. It's always better for the locals to depose their leader rather than outside assassination, even if it costs more lifes. For one thing it insures that the UN Security Council doesn't get blocked for the next fifty years over the next crisises (China and Russia don't ever want a repeat of the Libyan intervention).
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Old 16.09.2012, 23:53
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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You seem to be totally unaware of the current situation in Libya. The newly elected central government in Tripoli is extremely weak, and is trying to train up a new police force. They don't even have that at this stage. Having a democracy doesn't give a magic wand to resorb all problems resulting from the uprising. There's dozens if not hundreds of militias of many hues running around in every town, doing what they please with the weapons taken from army stocks. Some of them are secular, some are religious, some are just local, some are under influence from outside forces, especially ones with lots of money east of Libya. These are the source of the attack on the consulate. "the locals are rioting on 9/11 anniversary" is a sweeping generaiisation that the locals don't agree with! There were demonstrations in Benghazi and Tripoli on Sept 12th by people who were saying they were sorry and it wasn't in their name! Libyans haven't forgotten that the US helped to free themselves of the previous dictato. This got seriously underreported to many people, it didn't suit the narrative.

No one disputes the right for Libya to have armed forces, but getting militias to give up weapons is never easy. Just look at Lebanon, Kosovo, Bosnia... or France in 1945. And some of those weapons have left the country now to do mischief elsewhere, notably Mali.

As for "liberation through drone strike", that would have the big problem of giving no legimitacy to whoever succeeded Ghadafi. Imagine what the rest of the Arab world would think! To say nothing of some in the West. It's always better for the locals to depose their leader rather than outside assassination, even if it costs more lifes. For one thing it insures that the UN Security Council doesn't get blocked for the next fifty years over the next crisises (China and Russia don't ever want a repeat of the Libyan intervention).
I do know that before the bombing, Libya was a nice place to live, provided that you weren't too outspoken politically. Hospitals full of good Russian and Eastern european doctors, Swiss scanners and medical technology. Free healthcare, free flights to Germany for complex heart surgery when local staff were lacking. No weapons of mass destruction (thanks to Blair). And now it is a fragile dump, with no security, for the whole population, poor health care, and 30K citizens are rotting in the ground. Ghadafi was an old man, on his last legs. The general populace were not suffering compared to now. It was moving towards democracy, slowly. I don't think his sons would hold on to power for long after his death, and the militants that killed the poor US Ambassador were of course criminals. Probably those let out of jail by the new government during the revolution. Most of the population is Islamic, Christians were treated well, In many ways it was a model, majority Islamic state. Ghadafi was the hero of the African union.

A drone assassination would have been outrageous in that era, I agree, but not as bad for the population as the slaughter and civil war started by Nato, the UK and USA. That is why many local people are p****d off.

If you are not able to have direct democracy like Switzerland, then at least take a statistical approach to evaluating political success, in terms of number of people alive, and the quality of lifey the have day by day. The Libyan people have lost out big time.
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Old 17.09.2012, 02:51
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

Excuse me, but didn't UK and France give air support to the rebels as authorised by the United Nations? Wasn't the Lybian air force bombing civilians? I don't remember a western invasion, but I do remember that Ghadafi's army tanks were surrounding Benghazi and other towns, planning on a massacre, which was why the French and UK attacked the Libyan army. Tony Blair was NOT in the government, he was in the peace team since 27 June 2007, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair

Yes Ghadafi was a fine leader, giving support to terrorists around the world, until you stood up to him, and then he killed you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaddaf...ibyan_protests

Lockerbie, Berlin night club, the IRA, all financed by our beloved Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi
Gaddafi ran a school near Benghazi called the World Revolutionary Center (WRC). A notable number of its graduates have seized power in African countries.[126] Blaise Compaoré of Burkina Faso and Idriss Déby of Chad were graduates of this school, and are currently in power in their respective countries.[127] Gaddafi trained and supported Charles Taylor of Liberia, Foday Sankoh, the founder of Sierra Leone's Revolutionary United Front, and Jean-Bédel Bokassa, the Emperor of the Central African Empire.[125][128] Gaddafi also financed Mengistu Haile Mariam's military junta in Ethiopia, which was later convicted of one of the deadliest genocides in modern history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadafi
In February 2011, following revolutions in neighbouring Egypt and Tunisia, protests against Gaddafi's rule began. These escalated into an uprising that spread across the country, with the forces opposing Gaddafi establishing a government, based in Benghazi, named the National Transitional Council (NTC). This act led to a civil war, which precipitated military intervention by a NATO-led coalition to enforce a UN Security Council Resolution 1973 calling for a no-fly zone and protection of civilians in Libya. The assets of Gaddafi and his family were frozen, and both Interpol and the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants on 27 June for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam, and his brother-in-law Abdullah Senussi, concerning crimes against humanity

Yes a really fine family, totally misunderstood by the world and the Libyan people.

Now please P42, don't try to rewrite history.

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I do know that before the bombing, Libya was a nice place to live, provided that you weren't too outspoken politically. Hospitals full of good Russian and Eastern european doctors, Swiss scanners and medical technology. Free healthcare, free flights to Germany for complex heart surgery when local staff were lacking. No weapons of mass destruction (thanks to Blair). And now it is a fragile dump, with no security, for the whole population, poor health care, and 30K citizens are rotting in the ground. Ghadafi was an old man, on his last legs. The general populace were not suffering compared to now. It was moving towards democracy, slowly. I don't think his sons would hold on to power for long after his death, and the militants that killed the poor US Ambassador were of course criminals. Probably those let out of jail by the new government during the revolution. Most of the population is Islamic, Christians were treated well, In many ways it was a model, majority Islamic state. Ghadafi was the hero of the African union.

A drone assassination would have been outrageous in that era, I agree, but not as bad for the population as the slaughter and civil war started by Nato, the UK and USA. That is why many local people are p****d off.

If you are not able to have direct democracy like Switzerland, then at least take a statistical approach to evaluating political success, in terms of number of people alive, and the quality of lifey the have day by day. The Libyan people have lost out big time.
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Old 17.09.2012, 08:49
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Thats's my point! Most people think they are qualified when they're not ( no offence, easy mistake to make)! I will happily take this back if you can tell me that you are an expert in Arabic (fussha) or the original language the bible was revealed in (obviously not English), and looking from your profile, you don't know those two languages.
mm. The original language of the Bible is Greek and Hebrew. The Bible wasn't "revealed", it wasn't dictated by an angel masquerading as an angel of God, it was written by people, alledgedly inspired by God. It's development can be traced over thousands of years. It's a collection of 66 books of history, law, prophecy, poetry, wisdom, letters, biography and apocalyptic literature. While there are different translations from the Hebrew and Greek into various languages, they're all based on the same body of manuscripts, all agreed to be authentic and unbiased, dated way before Islam was first thought of.

I do know some Greek, and a little Hebrew, fyi. Having a maths degree helped to an extent, since I already knew the letters.

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Doing a degree in divinity doesn't make you a scholar ( again, no offence) but it is a first step in becoming an inquisitive student of religion, that's if the universities are using the authentic unbiased sources. Most problems related with religion is how people interpret the scripturs and thinking they are right, when they are clearly not.
You clearly have no idea whatsoever what studying divinity actually entails. It's considerably more than "interpreting" scripture. In fact, "interpreting" scripture is the first point where man's flawed reasoning comes in, and you end up with something manmade rather than divine.

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Different varients of Qur'an? That's a new one!
No it's not. But you have shown the typical level of ignorance of many believers, of whatever flavour, over the facts of the foundation of their faith. I'm not going to link to anything, nor am I going to recommend any book. The data is there (from Islamic sources) for the inquisitive mind.

I return to the main point. People who carry out violence in the name of Islam are guilty of defaming Islam. Probably they should beat themselves up.
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Old 17.09.2012, 08:53
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

If you read carefully I merely stated that Libya was once a nice safe place to live, with good health care, etc, compared to now, a fragile place, unsafe for westerners, after some 30,000 Libyans recently met an untimely end. I made no comment about Ghadafi.

Blair in fact made peace with Libya in 2004, in Government as PM, hailing "a new period of understanding", and lifting sanctions, after weapons of mass destruction were got rid of. Relations with Libya had until then been strained by the much earlier, tragic assassination of Yvonne Fletcher in London by Libyan diplomatic staff.

Ghadafi had a real problem with AQ like groups in Libya, stirring up his otherwise "model" state. Before Ghadafi's murder, CIA and UK advisors were on the ground. Exactly when they went in is not clear. Was it right at the start of the riots? Were there some there all the time as agitators? Certainly without Western and NATO backing, I don't think any force, Ghadafi included, would have managed to kill so many Libyans and do so much damage within 6 months and get away with it.

I was simply pointing out that the population of Libya feel aggrieved and angry about their dead, and the loss of their infrastructure.

Would Americans be happy if some foreign country went round taking weapons off individuals and destroying them?

We live in the most democratic country in the world, that got where it is by gradual change and tolerance over 150 years. That point seems lost on you.

There seem to be a lot of double standards involved in the portrayal of events in Libya, then and now.

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Excuse me, but didn't UK and France give air support to the rebels as authorised by the United Nations? Wasn't the Lybian air force bombing civilians? I don't remember a western invasion, but I do remember that Ghadafi's army tanks were surrounding Benghazi and other towns, planning on a massacre, which was why the French and UK attacked the Libyan army. Tony Blair was NOT in the government, he was in the peace team since 27 June 2007, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair

Yes Ghadafi was a fine leader, giving support to terrorists around the world, until you stood up to him, and then he killed you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaddaf...ibyan_protests

Lockerbie, Berlin night club, the IRA, all financed by our beloved Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi
Gaddafi ran a school near Benghazi called the World Revolutionary Center (WRC). A notable number of its graduates have seized power in African countries.[126] Blaise Compaoré of Burkina Faso and Idriss Déby of Chad were graduates of this school, and are currently in power in their respective countries.[127] Gaddafi trained and supported Charles Taylor of Liberia, Foday Sankoh, the founder of Sierra Leone's Revolutionary United Front, and Jean-Bédel Bokassa, the Emperor of the Central African Empire.[125][128] Gaddafi also financed Mengistu Haile Mariam's military junta in Ethiopia, which was later convicted of one of the deadliest genocides in modern history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadafi
In February 2011, following revolutions in neighbouring Egypt and Tunisia, protests against Gaddafi's rule began. These escalated into an uprising that spread across the country, with the forces opposing Gaddafi establishing a government, based in Benghazi, named the National Transitional Council (NTC). This act led to a civil war, which precipitated military intervention by a NATO-led coalition to enforce a UN Security Council Resolution 1973 calling for a no-fly zone and protection of civilians in Libya. The assets of Gaddafi and his family were frozen, and both Interpol and the International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants on 27 June for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam, and his brother-in-law Abdullah Senussi, concerning crimes against humanity

Yes a really fine family, totally misunderstood by the world and the Libyan people.

Now please P42, don't try to rewrite history.
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Old 17.09.2012, 09:43
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Of course, there's still enough room for misunderstandings and uncertainties.
Indeed. We still don't know if martyrs get 72 virgins or 72 white raisins... and the scholar who thinks its merely raisins decided to not publish under his real name to make sure that none trys to kill him to find out.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002...uardianreview5

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Most of the Islamic World, however, has never seen anything like the Enlightenment. For many Muslims, religion is the cornerstone of their community, their family, their life. And it's this what they feel being attacked when someone says something against Mohammed or Islam.
Fair enought but not an argument to raid and burn embassies or kill foreigners. There is more to the world than "the west" and Arabia and while the others also did not have an "enlightenment" period do they not attack foreigners.
This is not an US problem either - this weekend did the German embassy in Sudan burn... which at least caught me by surprise as there is no apparent reason for it. Not even an excuse as the stupid movie. But it seems that some local politicians and clerics managed to channel the aggressions of the mob on the street towards the apparently un-islamic Angela Merkel... if the cops in "damn-close-to-police-state" countries watch "protesters" without doing anything is it pretty clear that we are not watching some random mob but clearly controlled and orchestrated operations. The populists prefer to offer the angry masses some way to release their anger about their bad life situations on a scapegoat. A foreign one is nearly as good as local minorities of another religion.

Fact is that the "common man" in Arabia has a far lower life standard as Europeans while their countries have all the assets that should allow them to have a better life. But their dictators preferred to use those billions in other ways than public education and wellfare. Like it or not did the west very much like to work with those dictators as they kept the oil price low... and if that means that the Arab masses keep on having a crap life - that's still better than petrol hitting 3 CHF at a gas station. The one movement that indeed does look after the poor are in fact the Islamists. They claim that those dictators only managed to stay in power by having strong support from the west. To be honest do I for once at least partially agree with them - they were usually pretty shitty in economics and the only reason they managed to keep on doing what they did was because we never had a problem to buy their oil... and the Islamists will not forget that.
To stop those islamists does not take weapons, it takes political alternatives the common man believes in. And so far were most elections typically between islamists on the one side and lower tier representatives of the old regimes dressed up as "democratic" on the other side...
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Old 17.09.2012, 10:52
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

All I want to know is what on earth did Colonel Sanders do to get caught up in all this.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rotesters.html

They'll be sorry if KFC decide to pull out! I wonder if EF Libya would start monthly bargain bucket excursions to Tunisia...
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Old 17.09.2012, 10:52
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

Notallthere, I'd be very interested in links and books re different variants of the Qu'ran personally. Thanks.
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Old 17.09.2012, 11:35
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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It even constains a module on Islam, and there are variant versions (transmissions) of the Quran.
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it wasn't dictated by an angel masquerading as an angel of God
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all agreed to be authentic and unbiased, dated way before Islam was first thought of.
Reading between the lines, all I'm seeing is a number of thinly veiled barbs at Islam. With all due respect being a student in divinity does not a religious scholar make, certainly not with respect to other world religions. A good point of reference if you're 'interested' is 'Islam: A short History' by Karen Armstrong, who is an expert in comparative religion and able to write objectively on what is a complex and emotive subject.
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Old 17.09.2012, 11:37
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

No need to read between the lines, nothing thinly veiled, Castro, just a way of expressing myself. Anything you read into it is entirely your own interpretation. btw - you missed this "thinly veiled barb" against Christianity and Judaism. "The Bible, ... was written by people, alledgedly inspired by God. "

@Odile - I'll get them for you. May take some time as a I have a day and night job, and they're on my home computer. The reason I don't present them up front is that if someone is a "true believer", no amount of evidence will change their minds.
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Old 17.09.2012, 11:50
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Ask yourself one question, has any Muslims ever slandered any prophets of Jews or Christian phophets, Mary or Jesus.
Are you sure. The Qu'ran puts Mary down in a pretty nasty way.

I'm not saying that justifies anything. But it shows that name-calling and slander goes back a long way in history and is not just a phenomenon of our times.
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:01
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Reading between the lines, all I'm seeing is a number of thinly veiled barbs at Islam. With all due respect being a student in divinity does not a religious scholar make, certainly not with respect to other world religions. A good point of reference if you're 'interested' is 'Islam: A short History' by Karen Armstrong, who is an expert in comparative religion and able to write objectively on what is a complex and emotive subject.
Well, one important thing that is frequently forgotten is that Islam is not as monolithic as many in the West make it out to be. There is the split between the Shi'ites und Sunnites, and then further shades within those groups. There are some parts of islam like Sufism that attach much value to meditation and mysticism, almost like a far-eastern religion. Other parts are quite close to Christianity, and venerate Saints a bit like Catholicism does. Other parts again do other things. Therefore saying "islam does this" is often a vague statement that is rarely universally true.

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Old 17.09.2012, 12:09
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Are you sure. The Qu'ran puts Mary down in a pretty nasty way.

I'm not saying that justifies anything. But it shows that name-calling and slander goes back a long way in history and is not just a phenomenon of our times.
In that case you haven't read the Qur'an
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:13
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Ask yourself one question, has any Muslims ever slandered any prophets of Jews or Christian phophets, Mary or Jesus.
I am honestly not sure if you are serious... but in case you are: Just today, but I can easily google another thousand or so examples thanks to the radical idiots...

"After Friday prayers, hundreds of protesters broke down the door of the cathedral they totally trashed before setting fire to all the documentation and breaking the statue of the Virgin Mary,"
http://www.northafricaunited.com/The...yed_a2267.html

I personally care more about the irreplacable religious treasures radical Muslims have destroyed in recent years. Especially the buddhas of Bamiyan.



I fully agree on your view that everyone should be tolerant. However, the difference is that I have no problem to admit that we have plenty of nutters in "the West", from the movie maker to that radical pastor that burns Korans... but why do you not see the blatantly obvious fact that there are at least equally idiotic Muslims around. Actually worse in my eyes - from my view can they buy bibles and burn them all day, but dynamiting historical monuments is just a crime.

P.S: These idiots do not only destroy Christian or Buddhist monuments, but even Islamic ones if they consider them "wrong"... some 500 year old unique mosques were latey destroyed by them: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...-citys-spirit/
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:28
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

one fundamental question:
More than 20000 moslims and arabs are killed in Syria, (yes by other moslims/Arabs), and I newer saw a street fight or condemnations against it, anywhere in Muslim world! But when comes to a worthless and ridiculus movie, hundreds of thousands are ready to act with whatever they can pick and destroy embassies,...!
Somebody tell me what's the issue?!!!!! which one should offend them more?!

BTW, this is a good article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...0&denied=1
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:33
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Ask yourself one question, has any Muslims ever slandered any prophets of Jews or Christian phophets, Mary or Jesus.
is it a rhetoric question or are you a bit funny in the head?
blowing up these buddhist statues in afghanistan it was is one of the most known "slanderings" of buddhism. and you can google... see what you find?

edit: treverus posted this already...ok.
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:42
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

As an athiest, I find the whole situation utterly depressing that in this day of scientific and social "enlightenment" (pun intended), the religious dogma of the 'empowered' few can still drag us back to the dark ages.

As others have stated - the action of the few here have actively damaged public opinion (and therefore acceptance) of Islam in the west.

However, I suspect acceptance is not what the "hardcore radicals" want.

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Old 17.09.2012, 12:47
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

It's a shame, because at one time the Islamic world was at the forefront of science, technology, culture, philisophy and civilisation in general. Now it seems pretty backward.
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Old 17.09.2012, 12:54
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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mm. The original language of the Bible is Greek and Hebrew. The Bible wasn't "revealed", it wasn't dictated by an angel masquerading as an angel of God, it was written by people, alledgedly inspired by God. It's development can be traced over thousands of years. It's a collection of 66 books of history, law, prophecy, poetry, wisdom, letters, biography and apocalyptic literature. While there are different translations from the Hebrew and Greek into various languages, they're all based on the same body of manuscripts, all agreed to be authentic and unbiased, dated way before Islam was first thought of.

I do know some Greek, and a little Hebrew, fyi. Having a maths degree helped to an extent, since I already knew the letters.

You clearly have no idea whatsoever what studying divinity actually entails. It's considerably more than "interpreting" scripture. In fact, "interpreting" scripture is the first point where man's flawed reasoning comes in, and you end up with something manmade rather than divine.

No it's not. But you have shown the typical level of ignorance of many believers, of whatever flavour, over the facts of the foundation of their faith. I'm not going to link to anything, nor am I going to recommend any book. The data is there (from Islamic sources) for the inquisitive mind.

I return to the main point. People who carry out violence in the name of Islam are guilty of defaming Islam. Probably they should beat themselves up.
A little bit of Hebrew and a little bit of Greek and no Arabic makes you a "schooler" not "scholar" and still definately not near qualified. And I wonder who is teaching you Islam in your module....Christian, Jew, Muslim lecturer?

I wouldn't expect you to read the book that was recommended as most ignorant people don't care about the evidence as they've already made their mind up.

66 books in the bible? It seems someone conveniently hid other books from the bible? What really amazes me is that, if you've researched enough to scrape the barrel to falsely accuse varients of the Qur'an and you still believe what you believe, then you need to study for another 40 years my Abrahamanic brother.

I hear alot of non-muslims studying Arabic in SOAS (not assuming that you study there) to attack the religion, which is kind of sad, but it would have been better if people studied religion sincerely to find the "truth" rather than attack other religions. You have to accept that some people will believe and some won't (even after witnessing miracles) and that is the the fact of life and the hereafter.

As I stated originally, forums are not the appropriate platforms to have such discussions as it could go on for ever and ever.
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