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Old 17.09.2012, 12:57
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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is it a rhetoric question or are you a bit funny in the head?
blowing up these buddhist statues in afghanistan it was is one of the most known "slanderings" of buddhism. and you can google... see what you find?

edit: treverus posted this already...ok.
I guess you conveniently overlooked the killing of Muslims by Bhuddist in Burma.
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Old 17.09.2012, 13:02
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Now it seems pretty backward.

As are most religions.

What i cant get my head around are the blatent inconsistencies that most 'believers' ignore:

Turkey = a very large muslim country where alot of alcohol is consumed.

Indonesia = the largest Islamic country in the world.......where people drink alcohol and eat pork.


Are they all bad muslims?? How can the rules be different in different countries????


You see the same thing with the other major religions. It just makes no sense.


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Old 17.09.2012, 13:04
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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I wouldn't expect you to read the book that was recommended as most ignorant people don't care about the evidence as they've already made their mind up.
I recommend you mirror this comment back at Islam as well; it is a fundemental failing of nearly all religion.

Your defence of your beliefs is admirable, but please do not judge others harshly because they have not "educated" themselves in your chosen religion.
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Old 17.09.2012, 13:06
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

much like Catholicism, Islam is founded upon politics as much as religion. this is no way makes the good it teaches any less legitimate or praiseworthy, at least from my personal view, but it does come with greater risk for its use as a tool to justify political ends.

Zuger, the current spate of events have nothing whatsoever to do with that stupid little youtube movie, any more than bin Laden's efforts had anything to do with helping the average Muslim. what we're really seeing is that the "Arab Spring" had nothing at all to do with "liberation" or "freedom", but rather was just further evidence of the continued radicalization of Islam as a faith and its use as a political tool.
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Old 17.09.2012, 13:11
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

72 virgins stuff is not at all mentioned in Quran. Thats why if you want to know what it says please read the Quran and inform yourself first hand, rather than relying on second hand info.

Have you read how the german "scholar", you mentioned, translated quran?? Read here if you have n't yet"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran"

Basically there are some common words in arabic and syro-aramic language, like all languages have some similar words to another language. This "scholar" went around and inserted the syroaramic meanings of arabic words!!!.

For example there are many similar words between english and french. So if you are reading some french text you must translate it the way french understand it and not how it is used by the english people (even though the word might be similar).


Nous vous accusons DOES NOT mean we accuse you


Again if you want you can PM me I can send you a free copy of Quran you can read it.
Enjoy .....








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Indeed. We still don't know if martyrs get 72 virgins or 72 white raisins... and the scholar who thinks its merely raisins decided to not publish under his real name to make sure that none trys to kill him to find out.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002...uardianreview5


Fair enought but not an argument to raid and burn embassies or kill foreigners. There is more to the world than "the west" and Arabia and while the others also did not have an "enlightenment" period do they not attack foreigners.
This is not an US problem either - this weekend did the German embassy in Sudan burn... which at least caught me by surprise as there is no apparent reason for it. Not even an excuse as the stupid movie. But it seems that some local politicians and clerics managed to channel the aggressions of the mob on the street towards the apparently un-islamic Angela Merkel... if the cops in "damn-close-to-police-state" countries watch "protesters" without doing anything is it pretty clear that we are not watching some random mob but clearly controlled and orchestrated operations. The populists prefer to offer the angry masses some way to release their anger about their bad life situations on a scapegoat. A foreign one is nearly as good as local minorities of another religion.

Fact is that the "common man" in Arabia has a far lower life standard as Europeans while their countries have all the assets that should allow them to have a better life. But their dictators preferred to use those billions in other ways than public education and wellfare. Like it or not did the west very much like to work with those dictators as they kept the oil price low... and if that means that the Arab masses keep on having a crap life - that's still better than petrol hitting 3 CHF at a gas station. The one movement that indeed does look after the poor are in fact the Islamists. They claim that those dictators only managed to stay in power by having strong support from the west. To be honest do I for once at least partially agree with them - they were usually pretty shitty in economics and the only reason they managed to keep on doing what they did was because we never had a problem to buy their oil... and the Islamists will not forget that.
To stop those islamists does not take weapons, it takes political alternatives the common man believes in. And so far were most elections typically between islamists on the one side and lower tier representatives of the old regimes dressed up as "democratic" on the other side...
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Old 17.09.2012, 13:26
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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It's a shame, because at one time the Islamic world was at the forefront of science, technology, culture, philisophy and civilisation in general. Now it seems pretty backward.
I agree completely with the sentiment of this, that one religious based civilisation appears backward compared to another.

However, the Christians, when the Islamic world was "in front" would, at first, have disagreed from their perspective. A few hundred years later, Christians adapt, adjust, take the lead (the above perspective).

In the 1850s, our forebears were running round like savages compared to now, no votes for women, equality was hardly even dreamt of. Go back a bit further to the Crusades, still relatively modern times.

Being 100 years behind, is such a small margin for error in terms of tribal human evolution. It is even a small time frame for Religion based evolution.

Give them 150 years to work it out without all this agitation, supplying arms, pressure from the US, especially if it indirectly involves killing the populace en-masse to get rid of one person. Such Involvement in Syria is there again, resulting in another big pile of dead bodies.
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Old 17.09.2012, 13:46
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

Hey - you said no-one was really in a position to talk about these things. I don't think that's the case and demonstrated that some of us at least have begun to make a study.

In any case, relying on scholars instead of checking things out for yourself means that you can easily be led into believing something that's not true. As one of my muslim friends said "You want 5 opinions on a subject? Ask 4 mullahs!".

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66 books in the bible? It seems someone conveniently hid other books from the bible?
There are indeed some communities that have more books. The 39 OT books are those for which there exist ancient Hebrew manuscripts. The 27 NT books are those who authenticity was agreed by various councils having the authority to make those decisions, based on congregational use and tradition. In the same way your man Uthman did with the Koran. The additional books to be found in some communities are considered by those groups as useful for teaching, but not of the same level of authority as the 66. The gospel of Barnabas, beloved by some Muslims, is a 16th Century fabrication - oldest extant copy of which is from about 1580.
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Old 17.09.2012, 14:23
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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what we're really seeing is that the "Arab Spring" had nothing at all to do with "liberation" or "freedom", but rather was just further evidence of the continued radicalization of Islam as a faith and its use as a political tool.
The Arab Spring was sparked by the humiliation and self immolation of a fruit and veg seller in Tunisia, it then spread to Egypt where the flames of protest were fanned by young twitter tweeters of all religions and social classes. Religion was never used as a justification for the Arab Spring, although the ensuing political vacuum left by the fall of the dictatorships has been filled by democratically elected religious parties.
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Old 17.09.2012, 14:26
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Hey - you said no-one was really in a position to talk about these things. I don't think that's the case and demonstrated that some of us at least have begun to make a study.

In any case, relying on scholars instead of checking things out for yourself means that you can easily be led into believing something that's not true. As one of my muslim friends said "You want 5 opinions on a subject? Ask 4 mullahs!".

There are indeed some communities that have more books. The 39 OT books are those for which there exist ancient Hebrew manuscripts. The 27 NT books are those who authenticity was agreed by various councils having the authority to make those decisions, based on congregational use and tradition. In the same way your man Uthman did with the Koran. The additional books to be found in some communities are considered by those groups as useful for teaching, but not of the same level of authority as the 66. The gospel of Barnabas, beloved by some Muslims, is a 16th Century fabrication - oldest extant copy of which is from about 1580.
Still neither of us are qualified. I've studied theology for almost 10 years and I'm still scratching the surface. The more I learn the more I realise how little I know.

You don't need to ask 4 mullah's and do a round of Fatwa shopping. This is how banks label products sharia compliant when it is not.

All Mullahs will have to base their answers to the Qur'an and the Prophet's Sunnah as they all have to refer to the same sources and quote the evidence. Although a sensible person would go back and check those evidences given by the Mullah, but those who don't, will follow them blindly and can cause more harm than good if the Mullahs had bad intentions.

Your best pot shot on the Qur'an was varients, but you guys can't even agree on the versions of the Bible. Uthman neither added or subtracted anything from the Qur'an but the same cannot be said about the bible.

Which part of Basel Land are you from? PM me as we can continue this thread over a cup of tea, as I know other forumites are already getting bored of this subject.

Don't worry, I won't try to convert you, as I'll accept you for who you are and your beliefs.
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Old 17.09.2012, 14:46
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

Nice to see that whole crazy "freedom of speech" thing be up for debate. It's about time.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:05
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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...Your best pot shot on the Qur'an was varients, but you guys can't even agree on the versions of the Bible. ....
Yes we can. For the NT (Greek) it's called the Nestlé-Aland, for the OT it's called Masoretic Text (Hebrew).

For disputes over what is canonical - well, even Islam has its non-canonical/non-authorised recitations (versions).

Of course within either religion there are groups that argue over what is and what isn't canonical. But they're really in the minority so not cogent to the discussion.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:11
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

The mods should ban all those ITT who are talking about the Koran and the Bible instead of answering the question asked.

Why the trouble with the Muslim Movie? It's because it was used as a long-awaited excuse for radical Islamists to get back to attacking the West after a prolonged period of in-fighting and political change. What better opportunity will they have to radicalize a greater proportion of the muslim populace?

As someone already pointed out, Westerners should just pull out completely of these troubled regions and ignore them. Also, people fleeing from those places should not come to the West either. I'm sure the two differing lifestyles can co-exist without overlapping.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:18
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Syria is there again, resulting in another big pile of dead bodies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19621925

The situation in Syria is deteriorating quickly. UN reports of human rights abuse (On both sides), torture of detainees, summary executions, trials of mustard gas attacks by tanks and planes, Iranian republican guards visiting the trials, air strikes on civilians by the Syrian air force.

When will NATO step in and stop this civil war? What do you think? Should the big Satan be unleashed against the legal government of Syria? Or should they sort the problem out by themselves? The Libyan story is being repeated... talks are ongoing at this moment in Geneva.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:25
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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The mods should ban all those ITT who are talking about the Koran and the Bible instead of answering the question asked.

Why the trouble with the Muslim Movie? It's because it was used as a long-awaited excuse for radical Islamists to get back to attacking the West after a prolonged period of in-fighting and political change. What better opportunity will they have to radicalize a greater proportion of the muslim populace?

As someone already pointed out, Westerners should just pull out completely of these troubled regions and ignore them. Also, people fleeing from those places should not come to the West either. I'm sure the two differing lifestyles can co-exist without overlapping.
Without Muslim oil, your avatar wouldn't even lift off the ground.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:33
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Well let's see now:

Egypt: the 1979 peace treaty between Egypt and Israel was brokered by Jimmy Carter, and the USA provides military aid (a few billion dollars a year to each country) because of it. Some Egyptians (possibly a majority) are really unhappy at that treaty. Might be construed as interference. 1973 Yom Kippur war: America provided emergency munitions and electronic countermeasures to Israel, does that count as helping Egyptian defeat?

Yemen: US drone strikes against Al Qaida militants (and civilians) over the last decade, making the US ambassador really impopular.

Libya: in 2011 the Obama administration provided logistical and other support (helped knock out most of the local air defence) to NATO forces preventing the Libyan army assault on Benghazi that set off the Libyan civil war. 1986: The Reagan administration bombed various sites in Libya in revenge over terrorist attacks against US interests, including bombing a Berlin night club full of offduty US servicemen.

Tunisia: never heard of anything.

You may have to take into account what US companies (oil or other) were doing to influence local government too, usually with help from the State Department.
Tunisia? How about "Operation Torch" in ww2? The entire US north african campaign was fought in tunisia.

Also, libya, dont forget when the US marines in tripoli during the Berbary Pirate War during the early 19th century..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Derne

However, US involvement pales in comparison to the amount of time the British French and Spanish have spent running around north africa.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:35
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Without Muslim oil, your avatar wouldn't even lift off the ground.
the value of "Muslim oil" - which, by the way, can not exist unless Islam has somehow magically morphed into a sovereign government - and its ability to influence world affairs is vastly overstated.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:35
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Without Muslim oil, your avatar wouldn't even lift off the ground.
What's Muslim oil? Does oil have a religion?

Or take a different approach: Without Judaeo-Christian (and some atheist) technology, nobody would have a need for Mulsim oil.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:38
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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I do know that before the bombing, Libya was a nice place to live, provided that you weren't too outspoken politically. Hospitals full of good Russian and Eastern european doctors, Swiss scanners and medical technology. Free healthcare, free flights to Germany for complex heart surgery when local staff were lacking. No weapons of mass destruction (thanks to Blair). And now it is a fragile dump, with no security, for the whole population, poor health care, and 30K citizens are rotting in the ground. Ghadafi was an old man, on his last legs. The general populace were not suffering compared to now. It was moving towards democracy, slowly. I don't think his sons would hold on to power for long after his death, and the militants that killed the poor US Ambassador were of course criminals. Probably those let out of jail by the new government during the revolution. Most of the population is Islamic, Christians were treated well, In many ways it was a model, majority Islamic state. Ghadafi was the hero of the African union.

A drone assassination would have been outrageous in that era, I agree, but not as bad for the population as the slaughter and civil war started by Nato, the UK and USA. That is why many local people are p****d off.

If you are not able to have direct democracy like Switzerland, then at least take a statistical approach to evaluating political success, in terms of number of people alive, and the quality of lifey the have day by day. The Libyan people have lost out big time.

Where do you get your news from, Jihadist Monthly? This is ABSURD.

The libyan militias were BEGGING for western aid to stop qaddafi's forces from massacring everyon in bengazi after they rose up as part of the Arab spring, and were losing and facing massacre at the hands of the state security apparatus. After being invited to do so by the Arab League, NATO stepped in.

You cant pin this one on the west, mate. Plenty of others you can, but not this one.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:38
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Re: All The Trouble With Muslim Movie?

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Without Muslim oil, your avatar wouldn't even lift off the ground.
Without "Muslim oil" the Arabian peninsula would still be in the Middle Ages.
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Old 17.09.2012, 15:38
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Yes we can. For the NT (Greek) it's called the Nestlé-Aland, for the OT it's called Masoretic Text (Hebrew).

For disputes over what is canonical - well, even Islam has its non-canonical/non-authorised recitations (versions).

Of course within either religion there are groups that argue over what is and what isn't canonical. But they're really in the minority so not cogent to the discussion.
The more you write, the more you reveal your flawed knowledge. Which makes me think you're definately "Not all there".

There are 7 authorised dialects allowed to be recited in the prayer of the same source, but your warped prejudicial misunderstanding interprets this as different versions alltogether. Don't try to compare the Bible with Qur'an in the same sentence let alone same paragraph.

I haven't even made any refences to contradictions within the bible from your 66 authentic books, nor will I blame you for superseeding Jesus' instruction over self appointed Paul, or the fact that you disregard the OT even when Jesus' said he came to fulfil the law (OT), or the fact that no one even knows the surnames of John, Mark, Luke, Matthew from authentic sources.
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