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Old 20.09.2012, 11:28
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I'm sure all the homosexuals and apostates in the Middle East are glad that they live in such a polite society that doesn't allow abuses to the integrity of things they hold dear.
Dude this is getting boring, I'm talking about general principles. If you want to understand why anyone gets upset over insults to the their religion, then the above stated example is a good one since we all have mothers, but not necessarily a religious belief.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:28
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I think that when you see things like this, it's a clear case of a violent reaction to something that was created in poor taste, but it's a reaction by people who have been kept ignorant of their own religion by governments and "religious" leaders who capitalize on religion for political purposes.
And who riled them up? There are even conspiracy theories going around now that it was some kind of organized operation to destabilize the region. To be taken with a grain of salt of course, but it does seem fishy just how QUICKLY the word spread about the film in a grass-roots way in the Middle East. All of my friends and myself consider ourselves pretty well-informed in internet news, and we didn't hear about the movie until the violence had already started. How did people in such poor countries, many of whom without internet access all hear about it so quickly. It makes you wonder whether word of mouth about the film (not even the film itself, as I'm sure 99% of the people participating attacks never saw it) could have been a coordinated piece of flame-bait that was distributed through the right channels by people in the know looking to profit.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:37
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Some seem to believe that everyone should have a right to a
world in which they are never offended by something.

That notion offends me on a very deep—almost religious—level.
And of course, I would like that such ideas be heavily censored
by a league of all-knowing, ever tinkering governments.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:46
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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So Google will only block the video where free speech about religion does not exist!


I can't get my head around this, Google will continue to inflame the situation in the west as long as the film is available. People are dying out there! Just remove it, and now!

.
I cannot get my head around the fact that an educated person would support the ridiculous demand that I should curb my beliefs and opinions because they offend some nutcase somewhere.

It's a You Tube video for gods sake. Don't watch it!
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:47
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Dude this is getting boring, I'm talking about general principles. If you want to understand why anyone gets upset over insults to the their religion, then the above stated example is a good one since we all have mothers, but not necessarily a religious belief.
It's an explanation, but it sort of misses the point about what the implication of what is happening right now is. We're still talking about it like it's a simple matter of respect in society, as if it stops there. The implication of what's happening now is: make a publicly released video insulting someone's religion/mother and you run the risk of people dying as a result. We talk about polite society, but the cause of our concerns has nothing to do with polite society. It's fear and violence. Would you tell the parents of a guy who insulted someone else's mother (used only words, no physical harm) and got killed for it that he should have watched his mouth and sorta had it coming? Of course not, because the ultimate punishment was so much more terrible than the original "crime" that it doesn't even merit discussion. To entertain the idea that there's some kind silver lining lesson about respect to be learned in this case is grotesque victim-blaming at its worst.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:52
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Some seem to believe that everyone should have a right to a
world in which they are never offended by something.

That notion offends me on a very deep—almost religious—level.
And of course, I would like that such ideas be heavily censored
by a league of all-knowing, ever tinkering governments.
Offended isn't the issue, morally outraged is.

I've yet to read anyone say that any government should FORCE Google to take it down. That's censorship indeed.

I have seen said (and what I think) that Google should be obligated to take it down none-the-less, because it is simply the right thing to do.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:53
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Islamism forbids any caricature of Mohammed, and this film does exactly that.
my religion forbids people arguing online.
Please stop immediately.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:54
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I think you are oversimplifiying the situation.this is not something they find "offensive". The movie is a direct attack to their sacred ones.Of course nothing justifies a murder,however we can not just say this is west deal with it. What gives us the right to mock other peoples beliefs.Freedom of speech is being able to discuss those beliefs,not attacking them.

Also look at where those riots are happening;I hardly think that this is a religious reaction.
But wouldn't a movie bashing gays be a direct attack on them? And a poster portraying Jesus as Gay be an attack on Christians? Anytime someone does something that is against what you believe is an attack, it is how you respond that shows your character. I totally agree that the video is a shameless way to get attention. But who is worse. The person for making an insulting video (within his rights) or the people who kill innocent people because they don't like it. The people who killed a man who had nothing to do with the video are the criminals, not the person who legally pissed them off.
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:58
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I cannot get my head around the fact that an educated person would support the ridiculous demand that I should curb my beliefs and opinions because they offend some nutcase somewhere.

It's a You Tube video for gods sake. Don't watch it!
Does that video portray 'beliefs and opinions' though?
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Old 20.09.2012, 11:58
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I am all for freedom of speech.

But when I joke around with a friend, I stop short of insulting his mother. At some point you have to know where to stop and show some respect.
Agree, but the key word is "SHOULD" This film maker SHOULD NOT have made the movie. But SHOULD and CAN are two totally different meanings.

You SHOULD respect your friends mother, but it is not against any law to insult her. On the reverse side, your friend has no right to kill your next door neighbour because YOU insulted his mother.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:00
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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No we don't.

Just because someone ''believes'' in santa, homopathy, starsigns, religion, creationism over evolution, flying spaggetti monsters, ghosts or lizard alien people.......does not mean i have to respect them!!!

No thanks, i will stick to the facts and will continue to look down intellectually on these people and perhaps occasionally mock them for my own amusement/ego fluffing.
cheers
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And what makes you to be upper one? Remember, not everybody in this world have the same opportunities of having good education, health systems,etc.Just because you were born lucky doesn't mean that you can be the upper one.

Try to see the big picture, if we will not respect other beliefs (even the flying spaghetti monster), how can we expect other people to respect our own beliefs.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:01
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Offended isn't the issue, morally outraged is.

I've yet to read anyone say that any government should FORCE Google to take it down. That's censorship indeed.

I have seen said (and what I think) that Google should be obligated to take it down none-the-less, because it is simply the right thing to do.

People get morally outraged about homosexuals being allowed to live a normal life and get married
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:03
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

I just wonder, if we live in a world of free speech and expression, Google has the right not to remove the video, Muslims should be more tolerant... I just wonder if someone who submits a video with the title "Holocaust is a joke" (I don't deny Holocaust myself).

Shouldn't this be also regarded as freedom of speech? or is it a game of double standards? Even far less than that, any person expressing anti-Jews ideas is considered anti-semitic...why the Jews are not more tolerant then?

I am not with or against any side here....I am just wondering

Just for those who don't know... Holocaust denial in any form is implicitly illegal in many countries and is criminalized.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:12
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I just wonder, if we live in a world of free speech and expression, Google has the right not to remove the video, Muslims should be more tolerant... I just wonder if someone who submits a video with the title "Holocaust is a joke" (I don't deny Holocaust myself).

Shouldn't this be also regarded as freedom of speech? or is it a game of double standards? Even far less than that, any person expressing anti-Jews ideas is considered anti-semitic...why the Jews are not more tolerant then?

I am not with or against any side here....I am just wondering

Just for those who don't know... Holocaust denial in any form is implicitly illegal in many countries and is criminalized.
Had a quick look on my phone. The fith video was the iran leaders take on it. There's one titled the Greek neonazi leader denies the holocaust and so it's allowed so there's no double standards in that regard
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:14
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

In no civillised world should anybody get killed because they come from a country where a film was produced, which in every other aspect has nothing to do with them. There is no motive for that other than wild eyed indiscriminate hatred. Protest? yes, Demonstrate? Yes, Kill no. (the generalizing sceptic in me thinks the good answer would have been to stop selling the americans oil for a bit until they learn some respect... oh yes, but the money is more important.)

One could argue similarities between these riots and the riots in London last year though, before the West starts getting too self righteous about all of this.

Finally free speech relies on the public being educated enough to be able to sift through the crap and realise that somethings are said and done that shouldn't be and deserve no place in the sun. We live in a world where everything can be seen, actioned and commented on, but it seems we have, as a race, not developed the skills required to deal with this. It's also worth noting that somepeople just love to cause mayhem and be controversial fo rthe sake of it. They have the right to do this, we have the right to ignore them.

Personally I think it's fine to be offended by things, it's the abillity to rationalize this emotion that is key and that is above all else what makes us civillized.

At least no-one has made it worse by making a satirical cartoon.


Oh.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:17
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Anyway for me this debate about respect is something for another thread.

In the US extremists get to mock the dead at funerals of people who gave their lives for the country. Nazis and racists are able to spread the trash. The catholic church has been repeatedly trashed around the world. The titanics caricatures about them in particular spring to mind. As already written, Youtube also leaves up other objectable videos. For me the question isn't about respect but rather why should videos against muslims be treated any different?
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:25
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Had a quick look on my phone. The fith video was the iran leaders take on it. There's one titled the Greek neonazi leader denies the holocaust and so it's allowed so there's no double standards in that regard
Sure, I am sure Youtube has millions of videos which does not comply with their guidelines, hence the flagging option. Still, anyone with the peace of mind, can use such a clip for a criminal case, because holocaust denial is not tolerated (by law) as freedom of speech. I do respect your input, but I think the double standards still applies.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:29
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

I don't get the "we shouldn't criticise religions out of respect" argument. It only seems to apply to the religious institutions, to protect themselves, but not apply to them, per se.

They can say, "oh please respect my religion", but religions by default do not respect other points of view. How can christianity not be blasphemous when it says that mohammed is not a prohpet, how can muslims put up with jesus being portrayed as a god? It's stupid that they demand to be beyond criticism when they don't even apply the standards to themselves.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:48
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Agree, but the key word is "SHOULD" This film maker SHOULD NOT have made the movie. But SHOULD and CAN are two totally different meanings.

You SHOULD respect your friends mother, but it is not against any law to insult her. On the reverse side, your friend has no right to kill your next door neighbour because YOU insulted his mother.
Agreed. I'm just showing that people can get really pissed off if we are all free to exercise our right to freedom of speech willy nilly. What they do when they get pissed off is of course a different matter.

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For me the question isn't about respect but rather why should videos against muslims be treated any different?
Because we do not understand how close the relationship of muslims are to their prophet. Sticking to my analogy: I don't mind you calling my sister a whore, but it still doesn't mean that my mama is fair game. Or vice versa. Which one will outrage me, you don't know because you don't know me well enough.
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Old 20.09.2012, 12:48
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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Still, anyone with the peace of mind, can use such a clip for a criminal case, because holocaust denial is not tolerated (by law) as freedom of speech.
To the best of my knowledge, it would be perfectly legal to deny the Holocaust in the US because of the same Freedom of Speech rights that make this film legal.

Both in bad taste, but both legal (in the U.S.) The difference is that while Israel might not like it, they aren't exactly blowing up random consulates because of it.
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