Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Complaints corner  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 20.09.2012, 12:51
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
I don't get the "we shouldn't criticise religions out of respect" argument. It only seems to apply to the religious institutions, to protect themselves, but not apply to them, per se.

They can say, "oh please respect my religion", but religions by default do not respect other points of view. How can christianity not be blasphemous when it says that mohammed is not a prohpet, how can muslims put up with jesus being portrayed as a god? It's stupid that they demand to be beyond criticism when they don't even apply the standards to themselves.
Nobody is saying that we should not criticize religions, on the contrary, we definitely should.Not just religion, almost everything should be criticized at some point of time. However, I believe it is not the same to criticize and to attack through mockery. I mean what is the aim to criticize? to improve something,right? I don't really think that this movie will help to improve anything.
This user would like to thank Dark Blue for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 20.09.2012, 12:59
davis's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zürich
Posts: 59
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 39 Times in 21 Posts
davis has made some interesting contributions
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
Offended isn't the issue, morally outraged is.

I've yet to read anyone say that any government should FORCE Google to take it down. That's censorship indeed.

I have seen said (and what I think) that Google should be obligated to take it down none-the-less, because it is simply the right thing to do.
The two could be contradictory; how should one interpret calls for
obligating a company to remove certain material from its website?
The “morally outraged” could try to persuade consumers to boycott
the company. My quarrel, however, is with those who agitate for
government coercion.

(By the way, I am against all censorship laws.)
  #83  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:09
yjt yjt is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 586
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 601 Times in 261 Posts
yjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
Sure, I am sure Youtube has millions of videos which does not comply with their guidelines, hence the flagging option. Still, anyone with the peace of mind, can use such a clip for a criminal case, because holocaust denial is not tolerated (by law) as freedom of speech. I do respect your input, but I think the double standards still applies.
It is in many European countries. It isn't in the US where the film was made and uploaded. No double standards.

Quote:
View Post
Because we do not understand how close the relationship of muslims are to their prophet. Sticking to my analogy: I don't mind you calling my sister a whore, but it still doesn't mean that my mama is fair game. Or vice versa. Which one will outrage me, you don't know because you don't know me well enough.
We do. It will be as close as devout Christians are to Jesus etc.

You don't know what will outrage me full stop, so don't contradict me or say something against in anyway or there's a chance I'll burn your house down
  #84  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:10
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
But wouldn't a movie bashing gays be a direct attack on them? And a poster portraying Jesus as Gay be an attack on Christians? Anytime someone does something that is against what you believe is an attack, it is how you respond that shows your character. I totally agree that the video is a shameless way to get attention. But who is worse. The person for making an insulting video (within his rights) or the people who kill innocent people because they don't like it. The people who killed a man who had nothing to do with the video are the criminals, not the person who legally pissed them off.
Jeraille, I agree with you.

My point is if you would like to criticize gays you don't need to "bash" them or you would like to criticize Jesus you don't have to portray him as Gay( though I dont think it is a negative thing, I mean being gay. anyways I am getting off the subject).

As you said our reactions to situations and ideas show our character, this means that both the radicals reacting to this movie as well as the movie maker himself are good examples of bad characters. However, how can we reward one and punish the other. We, as good characters, need to be able to criticize both of those.
This user would like to thank Dark Blue for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:11
jerallie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Goldiwil
Posts: 615
Groaned at 53 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 523 Times in 179 Posts
jerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

There is no law in the US against denying the holocaust because you have the RIGHT to believe what you want to believe no matter how silly. There is a small religious group called Ramtha http://www.ramtha.com/. They worship an alien/man who lives in a huge spaceship and speaks through some strange lady who lives in Arizona. To me this is the nuttiest thing I have heard of, but they have the right to write, speak and believe in this stuff. You have a right to tell them they are dotty. We don't have the right to kill them because of what they think.
The following 2 users would like to thank jerallie for this useful post:
  #86  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:29
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 34
Groaned at 30 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 49 Times in 21 Posts
Caramelized has annoyed a few people around hereCaramelized has annoyed a few people around hereCaramelized has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Freedom of speech

I would like to ask some questions in the name of freedom of speech

Is there any proof of jesus not being impotent and sleeping with a women in his life ?

If Jesus was born today, would you believe marry telling her bible story of virgin birth ?
The following 2 users would like to thank Caramelized for this useful post:
  #87  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:35
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: Freedom of speech

Quote:
View Post

If Jesus was born today, would you believe marry telling her bible story of virgin birth ?
after all those GMOs,drugs trials and chemicals we are exposed to, yes I would
This user would like to thank Dark Blue for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:37
Swiss Cheddar's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Zug
Posts: 2,139
Groaned at 40 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 3,047 Times in 1,239 Posts
Swiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Freedom of speech

Quote:
View Post
If Jesus was born today, would you believe mary telling her bible story of virgin birth ?


She should probably go on The Jeremy Kyle show.........


cheers
SC
This user would like to thank Swiss Cheddar for this useful post:
  #89  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:55
Fidgety's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bottom of garden with fairies
Posts: 532
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 502 Times in 194 Posts
Fidgety has an excellent reputationFidgety has an excellent reputationFidgety has an excellent reputationFidgety has an excellent reputation
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
I just wonder, if we live in a world of free speech and expression, Google has the right not to remove the video, Muslims should be more tolerant... I just wonder if someone who submits a video with the title "Holocaust is a joke" (I don't deny Holocaust myself).

Shouldn't this be also regarded as freedom of speech? or is it a game of double standards? Even far less than that, any person expressing anti-Jews ideas is considered anti-semitic...why the Jews are not more tolerant then?

I am not with or against any side here....I am just wondering

Just for those who don't know... Holocaust denial in any form is implicitly illegal in many countries and is criminalized.

But Muslims on their anti Israel protests regularly have banners saying that the true holocaust is coming. They publicly state that Jews will be driven into the sea (i.e. killed). Lots of videos on you tube about that. As some one whose family (one of thousands) was driven out of Egypt by the Nasser regime, I find it offensive but will not kill anyone over it. Never heard of anyone being arrested over these banners either.

http://www.google.fr/search?q=muslim...N2n8DA8q0gVWM:
The following 2 users would like to thank Fidgety for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:55
nasa2000's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 434
Groaned at 18 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 280 Times in 130 Posts
nasa2000 has earned the respect of manynasa2000 has earned the respect of manynasa2000 has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
It is in many European countries. It isn't in the US where the film was made and uploaded. No double standards.
I never mentioned the US in particular, I am talking globally. Having mentioned Europe, from what you you've said, then Europe would be having double standards.

A guy in an European country holds a board with a Cartoon which is satirical of Muslims or any other ethnic group then it is freedom of expression.

Another guy who holds a board which is anti-Jews/holocaust he gets arrested.

I don't-personally- find a better example for double standards than that.
This user would like to thank nasa2000 for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 20.09.2012, 13:58
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,226
Groaned at 2,458 Times in 1,778 Posts
Thanked 39,329 Times in 18,537 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

[QUOTE=nasa2000;1668752]
Quote:
View Post
Having mentioned Europe, from what you you've said, then Europe would be having double standards.

A guy in an European country holds a board with a Cartoon which is satirical of Muslims or any other ethnic group then it is freedom of expression.

Another guy who holds a board which is anti-Jews/holocaust he gets arrested.
He wouldn't get arrested in Switzerland, so no double standards here!

Tom
  #92  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:04
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
Yes, several westerners have died, but hundreds of Muslims have perished.
Not as many as were killed in the aftermath of 9/11. So we should ban those films too?

Should we ban all films that might make somebody somewhere angry?

Or why the double standards? If you kill somebody, you have to answer for what you did.
Trying to pass the blame to a crazy fool thousands of miles away who uploaded something onto YouTube is beyond a pathetic excuse.
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #93  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:09
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
He wouldn't get arrested in Switzerland, so no double standards here!

Tom
and what if the banner was on the 1915 events against Armenians?

http://asbarez.com/86049/three-turks...nian-genocide/

Point is every country has its own laws and they are not the same;therefore, the only thing we can rely on is our self consciousness.
This user would like to thank Dark Blue for this useful post:
  #94  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:15
jerallie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Goldiwil
Posts: 615
Groaned at 53 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 523 Times in 179 Posts
jerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
Not as many as were killed in the aftermath of 9/11. So we should ban those films too?

Should we ban all films that might make somebody somewhere angry?

Or why the double standards? If you kill somebody, you have to answer for what you did.
Trying to pass the blame to a crazy fool thousands of miles away who uploaded something onto YouTube is beyond a pathetic excuse.
Completely agree.......

If you don't like a movie......don't watch it
If you don't like a song........don't listen to it
If you don't like a religion....don't follow it
If you don't like a lifestyle...don't subscribe to it

But don't make other people stop expressing how they feel and who they are because you don't like it.
The following 3 users would like to thank jerallie for this useful post:
  #95  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:28
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
Completely agree.......

If you don't like a movie......don't watch it
If you don't like a song........don't listen to it
If you don't like a religion....don't follow it
If you don't like a lifestyle...don't subscribe to it

But don't make other people stop expressing how they feel and who they are because you don't like it.
So why make such a movie about a religion you dont follow,a lifestyle you dont subscribe to. Why does it bother you that you make a movie with the sole intention to "make other people stop expressing how they feel and who they are because you don't like it"
  #96  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:30
jerallie's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Goldiwil
Posts: 615
Groaned at 53 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 523 Times in 179 Posts
jerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond reputejerallie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
So why make such a movie about a religion you dont follow,a lifestyle you dont subscribe to. Why does it bother you that you make a movie with the sole intention to "make other people stop expressing how they feel and who they are because you don't like it"
I don't agree with the content of the movie whatsoever personally. But I support the film makers right to make it.
The following 4 users would like to thank jerallie for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:33
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
So why make such a movie about a religion you dont follow,a lifestyle you dont subscribe to. Why does it bother you that you make a movie with the sole intention to "make other people stop expressing how they feel and who they are because you don't like it"
I don't remember anybody being killed when Michael Moore last made a movie about people he didn't like doing things he didn't approve of.

Sometimes living with free speech may involve developing a thick skin.

Sometimes criticism can also be turned into an opportunity for dialogue and for putting straight misperceptions and falsehoods. What we're seeing now is the opposite of that.
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #98  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: -
Posts: 1,640
Groaned at 26 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 2,932 Times in 1,202 Posts
Russkov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond reputeRusskov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
and what if the banner was against the 1915 events against Armenians?

http://asbarez.com/86049/three-turks...nian-genocide/
I'm against all censorship laws, but you can't really compare genocide denial laws as they exist in Europe today with the potential result of what would happen if the people protesting get their way. The Holocaust and genocide denial laws were arrived at through thorough fact-checking and, yes, probably some seriously lobbying. In any case, it was done through legal means, without bloodshed, and only applies to the countries where the laws were passed. It's unfortunate, I hope they're taken a look at one day, deemed as unnecessary, and repealed.

The current movements are different in that they're aiming to get their way through violence and there doesn't seem to be a limit or jurisdiction to where they eventually want the laws applied. In fact, many leaders are calling for worldwide blasphemy laws. They must realize that there is such a gulf in mentality between their beliefs and those of the Western world, but they're trying to impose theirs anyway despite being outnumbered. Using the potential for violence as an implication is just despicable.

I can kind of see the mentality behind accepting a law against Holocaust denial. They have the facts on their side, they made their case for why it was an important and sensitive subject in a civilized manner, perhaps exploited a loophole, and the law was agreed upon as one that only someone completely dim would willingly disrespect. And it only applies to one country. I don't agree with what happened, but I can understand why and respect the methods.

On the other hand, the implication of what is happening now is that we reconsider our freedom of expression because of potential harm to our well-being or anyone associated with us, no matter how remotely. It goes completely against how standards and laws are agreed upon in our society. If we capitulate to violent threats we might as well set the clock back on legal structure by several centuries. All because technology makes it much too easy for information to spread and we're afraid of how some people may react. It's effectively unenforceable anyway. It goes without saying that I don't respect these methods and see them as an active threat to the well-being and values of our society, almost on a primal level. Cries for sensitivity towards other people's cultures when we're the ones who are under threat just seem insane to me.
The following 3 users would like to thank Russkov for this useful post:
  #99  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:41
Dark Blue's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Thalwil
Posts: 379
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 411 Times in 242 Posts
Dark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of manyDark Blue has earned the respect of many
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
I don't agree with the content of the movie whatsoever personally. But I support the film makers right to make it.
Let me clarify, I am not saying that there should be any censorship or any law which would limit the makers right to make it. In my first post in this thread, I stated my position that the movie should stay online as a snapshot of our history, no matter if we are proud of it or not. The fact is that today we are at this stage, period.

What I am saying is that the methodology we choose to criticize the ideas is not really civil, let this be criticizing Islam (the mockery movie) or criticizing the movie (murders).

I believe we can do much better than that.
This user would like to thank Dark Blue for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:41
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,361
Groaned at 340 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 26,264 Times in 11,001 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Quote:
View Post
I can kind of see the mentality behind accepting a law against Holocaust denial. They have the facts on their side, they made their case for why it was an important and sensitive subject in a civilized manner, perhaps exploited a loophole, and the law was agreed upon as one that only someone completely dim would willingly disrespect. And it only applies to one country. I don't agree with what happened, but I can understand why and respect the methods.
I agree with everything you said in the last post except this.

Germany passed the Holocaust-denial and other denzification laws at a time when they were effectively an occupied country and had no choice but to codify and pass into law whatever whims certain foreign powers wired to them. And now that that occupation status has passed they are too afraid to actually repeal anything as they fear the far right would claim it as a victory. I hope there will one day be a government that has real balls and can deal with being laughed at and jeered by a handful of idiotic skinheads, knowing that it is but a hollow and meaningless victory they are being handed. But until that day comes, they continue to live in their own occupation mindset (at least on this one matter).
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
Closed Thread

Tags
free speech, you tube




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you remove car tax from windscreen? McTAVGE Transportation/driving 22 02.04.2012 22:30
41 y.o. Italian refuses to leave home Ittigen General off-topic 4 24.09.2011 13:13
You Tube links on iPad Caviarchips Forum support 0 22.08.2011 23:33
AVANEX refuses to back date! 2states Insurance 15 05.07.2008 15:23


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0