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Old 21.09.2012, 14:25
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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So the provoker has no fault? To my knowledge hitler didn't kill any jew himself but provoked the hate but I dont think this makes him a Saint.


I call it at 13:24
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Old 21.09.2012, 14:32
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

And if you're looking for simple "guy insults my mother, I am somewhat justified to hit him" causality. Simple question - did the people in the embassies insult the prophet? Should all citizens of a country cower in fear that one of their millions of countrymen will one day say something ignorant or hurtful that may possibly lead to them being killed? There is such an imbalance of cause vs effect in the nature of the implications (words vs acts) and the SHEER SCALE that it has the potential to be applied to that it's borderline scary. The "insult my mother" analogy is really simplistic and borderline facetious. It goes beyond some kind of vague feeling of empathy of "I understand why they would be offended", the implications are so much more dire.
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Old 21.09.2012, 14:35
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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He didn't just provoke the hate, he also gave the order. Small detail.

The provoker may have a fault, but we can also approach this as a situation that goes both ways. Where is their respect for our culture's freedom of expression? Where is their respect for the fact that we don't hold the propher Mohammed as a holy figure? We keep seeing these thinly veiled justifications post after post. "Yes, obviously I'm not condoning the violence but..." No! No buts. You don't threaten to impose your will through violence. And if you do, prepare to get an equally violent pushback. I think the Western governments are showing incredible restraint.
I don't have a single post in here which praises violence of any kind.unfortunately,I don't recall any condemning reaction towards the provokers too.

Remember,no buts!

I don't want to touch to this "showing restraint" subject,because it is prone to take this civil discussion to whole other level.
  #144  
Old 21.09.2012, 14:51
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I don't have a single post in here which praises violence of any kind.unfortunately,I don't recall any condemning reaction towards the provokers too.
The creators of the video have been properly called the negative names they deserve in other threads by many people, me included. People didn't talk about them much in this thread because they're not really worth mentioning. Which is the attitude everyone should take.

And to be fair, I doubt 99.99% of the people engaging in the violence and taking it oh-so-personally even saw the movie, they're just taking other people's word for it. So I doubt the provokers matter much to them, either, despite how much they pretend they do.
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Old 21.09.2012, 15:01
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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So the provoker has no fault? To my knowledge hitler didn't kill any jew himself but provoked the hate but I dont think this makes him a Saint.
What a stupid comment
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  #146  
Old 21.09.2012, 15:30
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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What a stupid comment
Well Castro,you called it!for me thread is over now.
  #147  
Old 21.09.2012, 15:38
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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So the provoker has no fault? To my knowledge hitler didn't kill any jew himself but provoked the hate but I dont think this makes him a Saint.
That's a pretty grotesque hyperbole.

So in your comparison

Hitler = guy who made the movie
Muslim protesters = concentration camp guards
Embassy staff = Jews

That's a screaming good parallel.
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  #148  
Old 21.09.2012, 16:04
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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That's a pretty grotesque hyperbole.

So in your comparison

Hitler = guy who made the movie
Muslim protesters = concentration camp guards
Embassy staff = Jews

That's a screaming good parallel.
I feel obligied to correct.

Amogles,those your words not mine.

My comment was not a metaphor but an example to argue that the provokers(voilence seekers) are as guilty as the violents.
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Old 21.09.2012, 18:44
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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The people who are denying the Holocaust today are quite obviosly flappers who are distorting if not inventing facts to suit their theory. But that doesn't exclude that somebody might one day have some factual arguments challenging some aspect of the generally agreed version of events, even if it's just a detail. Should such a person have their free speech curtailed?
Sorry I'm a bit late in answering. Of course if someone has factual arguments challenging some aspects he should be able show it. He won't be denying it though. He'll be suggesting the holocaust happened slightly different. Wikipedia has an interesting link:

The two leading critical exposÚs of Holocaust denial in the United States were written by historians Deborah Lipstadt (1993) and Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman (2000). These scholars make a distinction between historical revisionism and denial. Revisionism, in their view, entails a refinement of existing knowledge about an historical event, not a denial of the event itself, that comes through the examination of new empirical evidence or a reexamination or reinterpretation of existing evidence. Legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" or a "convergence of evidence" that suggest that an event_like the black plague, American slavery, or the Holocaust—did in fact occur

So it is established that historians can question historic events. I've been looking about incidents of holocaust deniers and there's the one of the greek neo-nazi leader who insists there were no ovens in Auschwitz or gas chambers.

Looking at the Wiki page David Irving, probably the most famous holocaust denier claimed among others: there were no gas chambers at the death camp, he asserted that only 30,000 people died at Auschwitz between 1940–45, all of natural causes.

These aren't details rather they question if the holocaust really happened



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But is it. If I claim there was a mass genocide of imaginary spaghetti people in 2004, and call for all those who doubt that to be cast in prison ...

Who gets to decide which genocides were for real and which weren't?



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But is it. If I claim there was a mass genocide of imaginary spaghetti people in 2004, and call for all those who doubt that to be cast in prison ...

Who gets to decide which genocides were for real and which weren't?
I agree this is a difficult decision to make. I'm totally against the decision being made by political means like in France where the parliament decided that the Ottomans omitted genocide in Armenia.

The EU suggests that the ICC should be the ones to decide which are probably the ones best placed to decide.

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That could well turn out to be an own goal for Germany. Remember when Geert Wilders was banned from entering the UK, and finally the government had to back-peddle with a lot of egg on their face? In the end it was a load of free publicity for Wilders and achieved nothing for anybody else. Wouldn't it have been better to let him come in without much fuss but just not go to his speaches? What is fundamentally different about the present ban?
I agree it could backfire but Germany seems to have stricter laws in this aspect which means they're less likely to back-peddle.

To be honest the more I think about the more I'm leaning towards the US mentality yet I find European countries are consistant in their position on this particular subject which was the point I was making.



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I would say freedom of religion gives you the right to say and believe what you want, but not to do what you want. That is a fundamental difference. Freedom ends where it affects the freedom of another person. So if you have a religion that says your wife musn't leave the house alone, that's fine if your wife agrees, but it ends when she doesn't.
I brought the freedom of religion into the subject to show even though I'm tending towards the US mentality, I do understand why the laws here have been made and that restrictions on certain human rights is not unprecedented.

You say it's fine if a woman stays at home as long as she agrees to it. Well the trend in western countries is to ban the Burka and sometimes even headscarves - regardless of the woman's opinion. Your still not going to be allowed to have two wives no matter what your religion says. How about discriminations. Most religions discriminate against women and homosexuals among others. Any normal business would be heavily fined for this.

You say it stops when it affects the freedom of others. What about circumcision? No one asked the child if he wants cut or not. If I founded a religion and said one needs to cut of the bottom flesh part of your left ear and did that to a child the chances are I'll be defending myself in court to charges of child assault.

My point was that just like for the freedom of speech laws here, also the freedom of religion is open to a lot of interpretation of law makers. Heck one even needs to define if a religion really is a religion or a sect or something else so I don't feel this is as black and white as your explanation.
  #150  
Old 21.09.2012, 19:38
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

If you have the will to learn then watch it to the end. You would know why we get so emotional about the last messenger of GOD.




By the way he is in the same line of prophets that went before him i.e. Noah, Abraham, Issac, David, Moses and Jesus (May peace and blessings be upon all of them)...
  #151  
Old 21.09.2012, 19:59
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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I brought the freedom of religion into the subject to show even though I'm tending towards the US mentality, I do understand why the laws here have been made and that restrictions on certain human rights is not unprecedented.

You say it's fine if a woman stays at home as long as she agrees to it. Well the trend in western countries is to ban the Burka and sometimes even headscarves - regardless of the woman's opinion. Your still not going to be allowed to have two wives no matter what your religion says. How about discriminations. Most religions discriminate against women and homosexuals among others. Any normal business would be heavily fined for this.

You say it stops when it affects the freedom of others. What about circumcision? No one asked the child if he wants cut or not. If I founded a religion and said one needs to cut of the bottom flesh part of your left ear and did that to a child the chances are I'll be defending myself in court to charges of child assault.

My point was that just like for the freedom of speech laws here, also the freedom of religion is open to a lot of interpretation of law makers. Heck one even needs to define if a religion really is a religion or a sect or something else so I don't feel this is as black and white as your explanation.
But the burka isn't being banned on religious grounds, it's for security reasons and it's only the full face covering version anyway. There's nothing to stop them wearing a burka that leaves their face clear for other people to see. I know some don't like it, but in these security conscious times I think it's another area where compromise is essential.

I agree with you about the circumcision too. I don't think any child should have this done without their consent whether it's for religious or just normal practice. Let the child make a well thought out and informed decision when he has his barmitzvah or even later. Does it really matter to God that it's done at a certain point in his life? I doubt it very much. And the same with mothers who get their daughters ears pierced while they're still babies/toddlers.
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  #152  
Old 21.09.2012, 20:04
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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at the risk of restating the obvious, free speech in the US was not "put in", nor can it be "removed". and the intent of protecting is free speech is exactly to permit people to be provoked.
of course it can be removed...

"permit people to be provoked"....really...you're serious?
  #153  
Old 21.09.2012, 21:17
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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of course it can be removed...

"permit people to be provoked"....really...you're serious?
no, it cannot, other than by constitutional amendment voted on and approved by the States. this is what sets the US apart from nearly every other nation in the world, freedom of speech is an inalienable right.

and yes, the purpose of freedom of speech is to protect the right of people to provoke thought and challenge ideas and people openly and without government censorship or intervention.
  #154  
Old 22.09.2012, 00:42
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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If you have the will to learn then watch it to the end. You would know why we get so emotional about the last messenger of GOD.
The lad is just made for that.

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  #155  
Old 22.09.2012, 11:11
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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If you have the will to learn then watch it to the end. You would know why we get so emotional about the last messenger of GOD.
this will take less time, and is a helluva lot funnier. might also make you think.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full...n-wars-part-ii
  #156  
Old 22.09.2012, 12:08
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

This is about right.......
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  #157  
Old 22.09.2012, 14:44
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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So the provoker has no fault? To my knowledge hitler didn't kill any jew himself but provoked the hate but I dont think this makes him a Saint.
oh that's all right then. I suppose GWB didn't actually kill any Iraqis or Afghans. it's them stupid soldiers who carry guns and stuff... blame them.
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Old 22.09.2012, 18:56
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Why to ask him/her even politely not to use their inalienable right of freedom of expression? Doesnt add up quite.
Agreed on violence.
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If by " "ask" " you mean engage in a violent act, then the fault is on you for not showing maturity and restraint and allowing yourself to be provoked in such a manner. Whatever the other person said doesn't matter anymore if you put their well-being in danger.
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Old 22.09.2012, 20:36
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

Great. Now the Pakistan Railways Minister has said he'll reward anyone who kills the film maker with $100,000. That'll really help calm things down.
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Old 22.09.2012, 20:39
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Re: You Tube refuses to remove video

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