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Old 30.09.2012, 14:34
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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... tossed the lit cigarette behind him and it missed my daughter who was in her buggy by cm's and no reaction from him either when I yelled out.....
Ah - the littering caused by smokers. There's another fun topic. Apparently flower beds, tram platforms and the ballast under tracks are, in fact, ash trays. (As is anything directly under a ski-lift).

Inconsiderate smoking is, of course, not an activity that indicates the perpetrator is of the lower classes. It merely indicates a lack of class.
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Old 30.09.2012, 14:38
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

This chart showes how hypocritical today's drug policy is anyway:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrea...Risks_and_harm
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Old 30.09.2012, 14:42
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

Mushrooms: organic, vegan, fat-free, smoke-free, 100% natural and no harm to myself. Now THAT sounds tempting.....
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Old 30.09.2012, 14:45
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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We all have bad habits and I don't like getting smoke blown in my face either but many smokers are very considerate of others and will smoke in places that don't bother non-smokers.
Considerate of other smokers …
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Old 30.09.2012, 14:46
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Especially at train platforms where I am standing there first then along comes a smoker and lights up right next to me and has it blow all over the non smokers whom they expect to move if they dont like it! Lost count how often this happens but the number of respectful smokers is a low percentage on teain platforms
…and littering seems to be acceptable behavior for smokers too –in particular at train stations.
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Old 30.09.2012, 14:59
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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I'm all for individual liberties, but it's increasingly difficult to get out and mingle with the culture(s) when you are contantly bombarded with smoke. I know this is a tired topic, but my children begged us to take them to EuropaPark. With all the advertising of the "mice" characters and Halloween fun and rides, thought this would be a great family building adventure. We had thought of buying season (year) passes. Unlikely. My children were incredulous of how much and how frequent the smoking... even kids who seemed in their early teens. I can't ever remember (even in my earlier days in the US) of so much second hand smoke. Waiting in lines for 60+ minutes in a never-ending fog of smoke. And these Europeans are the pinnacle of perfection for the US to emulate? Sure, America can learn a few things from Europe, but Germans/Swiss could learn something from Americans in regards to not just logical smoking restrictions but some education to change the image of smoking. There is a stigma and low class association with smoking, rightfully so, in the US. With everything that is known that it does to you long term... Incredible. Even more-so that someone would pay 8 to 10 CHF for this "slavery".
I was there, too, two weeks ago.
In theory, they've restricted smoking to non-waiting areas. But in practice, it's not so strongly enforced.
And there's enough smoke outside the waiting-areas from people waiting and smoking there that it's almost a nuisance.
The ash-trays in the waiting-areas are there so that people who "forgot" to put out their cigarettes don't just throw the cigarette butts on the ground...

While in theory, it wouldn't be a problem to completely ban smoking there, like me you'll realize that smokers are probably their most or 2nd most important customers.
My theory:
Smoker can't go out and climb a mountain or go on a mountain-bike ride with some uphill. Rides like in the Europapark are their only chance to get some sort of "thrill".


I would suggest you go to their website and use the feedback-form (which I'm sure exists somewhere) and tell them your story in polite words, so that they realize that non-smoking families are an important target audience, too.

I wanted to do the same and write a complaint (because my GF reported a smoker on a platform to an attendant and got shown the finger by that smoker, while he had to put out his cigarette) - but I thought "Ah, I'm over-sensitive again..." and didn't get around going to the website again.

Europapark is a family-owned business (largest in the world, IIRC), so your mail will quickly hit someone who has decision power ;-)
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Old 30.09.2012, 15:51
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Especially at train platforms where I am standing there first then along comes a smoker and lights up right next to me and has it blow all over the non smokers whom they expect to move if they dont like it! Lost count how often this happens but the number of respectful smokers is a low percentage on teain platforms
Be glad not to be living up to the 1950ies, as the steam locomotives might have had a far worse result on your clean white summer dress ... but imagine it was you to pull the whole train, I get your dress would get even dirtier.

Seriously, I'm not a smoker either, but don't lose out of your sight the relation of your claim. I think living or working close to a street with normal traffic is another pair of shoes. Or exctracting oil in the US. Or in Australia. Chemical valley in Louisiana. Heavily damaged landscape and environment. Not talking about China and others. No comparison with Switzerland at all.
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Old 30.09.2012, 18:36
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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This chart showes how hypocritical today's drug policy is anyway:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrea...Risks_and_harm
The full text of the graph includes this important caveat "The authors explain that one of the limitation of this study is that drug harms are functions of their availability and legal status in the UK, and so other cultures' control systems could yield different rankings."

That is, it does NOT show the harm that could/would be caused if currently illegal drugs were made legal.

The fact that tobacco is less harmful than alcohol in total terms might be due to it being less prevalent in the UK, due to tighter controls than on alcohol.
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Old 30.09.2012, 18:46
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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The full text of the graph includes this important caveat "The authors explain that one of the limitation of this study is that drug harms are functions of their availability and legal status in the UK, and so other cultures' control systems could yield different rankings."

That is, it does NOT show the harm that could/would be caused if currently illegal drugs were made legal.

The fact that tobacco is less harmful than alcohol in total terms might be due to it being less prevalent in the UK, due to tighter controls than on alcohol.
In other words this is a biased and limited stufy as it focuses on the UK which has a known cultural overindulgence in alcohol, if people are looking to quote studies then they really should look at how relevant they are, in this case the study is unlikely to be representative of a global situation.
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Old 01.10.2012, 10:53
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

If you think occasional run-in with second hand smoke outside is bad enough to ruin your day now, you have no idea. The sadist in me would have loved to have seen the first day out of an American expat (used to stringent SH smoke laws) in Switzerland 5+ years ago when it was allowed inside.

I'm not saying people don't have the right to be mad, but it's so easy to lose perspective. A while ago I remember a woman posting that she was ready to move back to her country because of occasional SH smoke on train platforms. Really, this is the deal-breaker now?

With only the most extreme voices being heard, it's no surprise that the new proposed law was so overbearing that even a large part of non-smokers voted against it and led to it not passing.
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Old 01.10.2012, 11:23
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

My kids are growing up in a world with less fear and more freedom than in many other places in the world. Second-hand smoke is a small price to pay for this.

They can learn the occupation they want through an education suited to their abilities.
They're growing up in one of the most beautiful areas in the world.
They've got public transportation available to them.
They are even allowed to drink beer and wine at 16 (of which I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages)
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:10
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

I just returned from Europa Park with my family last night and although I did see some people smoking in the line, it was not a day ruiner. It is a great park that is super clean and well run. Comparing it to US parks, I would say that overall it is better managed and run and often cleaner.
I can't stand smoking and second hand smoke is the most obtrusive thing a person can do. What I find super interesting is how some people here will bark at you because your loud footsteps "disturb" their quiet, but find it perfectly acceptable to smoke non-stop on their balcony as their smoke envelopes the ones above them (meaning mine). More hypocritical behaviour is hard to find.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:16
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

I am not allowed to smoke at any of Switzerland`s ocean beaches.

I can live with that.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:27
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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In other words this is a biased and limited stufy as it focuses on the UK which has a known cultural overindulgence in alcohol, if people are looking to quote studies then they really should look at how relevant they are, in this case the study is unlikely to be representative of a global situation.
By picking your method and sample, you can basically make statistics say anything you want. I could make a statistical case that getting passed-out hammered while snorting uncut coke is actually healthful by sampling, say heroin addicts and terminal cancer patients. I'm exaggerating, of course, but the principle holds true.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:46
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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If you think occasional run-in with second hand smoke outside is bad enough to ruin your day now, you have no idea. The sadist in me would have loved to have seen the first day out of an American expat (used to stringent SH smoke laws) in Switzerland 5+ years ago when it was allowed inside.

I'm not saying people don't have the right to be mad, but it's so easy to lose perspective. A while ago I remember a woman posting that she was ready to move back to her country because of occasional SH smoke on train platforms. Really, this is the deal-breaker now?

With only the most extreme voices being heard, it's no surprise that the new proposed law was so overbearing that even a large part of non-smokers voted against it and led to it not passing.
Laws similar to this frustrate me because they create a conflict between one person's right/desire to not breath secondhand smoke, another person's right/desire to do with his/her body as s/he chooses, and private property owners' right to do with their property as they choose. We understand that there needs to be balance between and limitations on all three, but I find the current legal schemes sacrifice legitimate private property concerns on the altar of public health in a very arbitrary and unnecessary manner.
Simply put, I think it is an infringement of a business-owner's property rights and wrong for government to tell him/her that s/he cannot allow smoking in his/her business. On the contrary, I think it is a perfectly acceptable function to require businesses to disclose their smoking status, by placing signage on doors etc (a no-smoking sign or a smoking-allowed sign). This allows us to make an informed decision about how much interaction we wish to have with the business; if we don't like smoking and the business allows it, we can go elsewhere. Conversely, if we want to be able to smoke away, and the business allows it, we should be able to do that also.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:51
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Simply put, I think it is an infringement of a business-owner's property rights and wrong for government to tell him/her that s/he cannot allow smoking in his/her business. On the contrary, I think it is a perfectly acceptable function to require businesses to disclose their smoking status, by placing signage on doors etc (a no-smoking sign or a smoking-allowed sign). This allows us to make an informed decision about how much interaction we wish to have with the business; if we don't like smoking and the business allows it, we can go elsewhere. Conversely, if we want to be able to smoke away, and the business allows it, we should be able to do that also.
This gets complicated where the business is a monopoly - such as the SBB.

And if, for example, one supermarket allowed smoking, the chances are that the others would follow suit, leaving the consumer with no choice.
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Old 01.10.2012, 12:57
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

Maybe the OP has a point.

He talks about Switzerland / Germany learning a thing from Americans.

Certainly when you look at the US copying Hitlers approach in a more subtle way of brainwashing their nation and invading other nations then perhaps they need to share more of their ideas.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:07
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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I just returned from Europa Park with my family last night and although I did see some people smoking in the line, it was not a day ruiner. It is a great park that is super clean and well run. Comparing it to US parks, I would say that overall it is better managed and run and often cleaner.
I can't stand smoking and second hand smoke is the most obtrusive thing a person can do. What I find super interesting is how some people here will bark at you because your loud footsteps "disturb" their quiet, but find it perfectly acceptable to smoke non-stop on their balcony as their smoke envelopes the ones above them (meaning mine). More hypocritical behaviour is hard to find.
This is where you are wrong:

In the US there are free re-fills on soft drinks bigger than your children
There is also super super size fries
Spacious seating
Lots of signs and posts to keep you aware safe that you are being protected from the war on terror
If you and your children cant manage the basic skill of walking, you can get a scooter
  #39  
Old 01.10.2012, 13:11
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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This gets complicated where the business is a monopoly - such as the SBB.

And if, for example, one supermarket allowed smoking, the chances are that the others would follow suit, leaving the consumer with no choice.
I see your point with the SBB, however, I would contend that, as SBB is a government-held company, the cantonal governments can easily legislate against smoking. In this case, it is not a government infringement on a business-owner's private property rights, as the government is also the property owner.

With regards to the supermarket example, I think that popular sentiment is against smoking, and that while some supermarkets may allow smoking, many more may not. Also, consider that large chains like Coop or Migros may make the decision on allowing smoking at the individual store level and not across the entire chain.

I worked in the restaurant industry in Florida during a time of transition with regards to smoking law. When I began in the industry, restaurants were only required to provide reasonable accommodation and separation of smokers and non-smokers and many had already begun to convert entirely to non-smoking of their own free will. The first restaurant at which I worked opened as an entirely non-smoking restaurant, solely of the free will of it's general manager. No law was required to do this; the manager made a decision that non-smoking was in his best business interests. Later, the voters of the state passed an amendment to the state constitution (IIRC- might've just been a law) disallowing smoking in any restaurant (but with a few caveats). IMO, instead of exercising their economic power (by avoiding restaurants with smoking sections) and forcing businesses to choose their path forward, Florida voters took the easy way out and filled in a bubble on a ballot and took away the freedom of restaurants to choose how they conducted business in this matter.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:13
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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What I find super interesting is how some people here will bark at you because your loud footsteps "disturb" their quiet, but find it perfectly acceptable to smoke non-stop on their balcony as their smoke envelopes the ones above them (meaning mine). More hypocritical behaviour is hard to find.
And why can't you bark in the same fashion at those people smoking on the balcony below? Not really "super-interesting" more "lack of communication".
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