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Old 01.10.2012, 13:15
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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This is where you are wrong:

In the US there are free re-fills on soft drinks bigger than your children
There is also super super size fries
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If you and your children cant manage the basic skill of walking, you can get a scooter
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  #42  
Old 01.10.2012, 13:18
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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If you think occasional run-in with second hand smoke outside is bad enough to ruin your day now, you have no idea. The sadist in me would have loved to have seen the first day out of an American expat (used to stringent SH smoke laws) in Switzerland 5+ years ago when it was allowed inside.
I came to visit and meet my (then future) in-laws for the summer of 2006. Coming straight from Florida (where some of the restaurants even have anti-cellphone rules for noise pollution) to Basel was quite the eye opener - and lung closer.

I grew up with both parents smoking, spent my early 20s with friends and sweeties who smoked, and never realized just how bad everything smells. The intervening time from then to my visit here in 2006 made the comparative wall of smoke very obvious, and hard to take.

So, now I'm a bit used to it again, but very thankful hubby doesn't smoke so we don't often have to deal with smoke in our own place - the notable exception being when the neighbor who has his terrace right next to our bedroom is out for his last smoke of the night.

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I'm not saying people don't have the right to be mad, but it's so easy to lose perspective. A while ago I remember a woman posting that she was ready to move back to her country because of occasional SH smoke on train platforms. Really, this is the deal-breaker now?

With only the most extreme voices being heard, it's no surprise that the new proposed law was so overbearing that even a large part of non-smokers voted against it and led to it not passing.
These days I'm a bit more used to the smoke again, the visit and the first year or so here was pretty bad at restaurants, because of course not everyone comes and goes at the same time, so the table next to you may be finishing up (and lighting up) just as your meal arrives.

I'm having some trouble with asthma the last year or two though, which hadn't troubled me since I was a child. I feel very self-conscious if someone starts smoking next to me and it makes me cough - I don't like the idea that they may think I'm (fake) coughing to complain, but unfortunately, their smoke DID make me cough. This bothers me.

The other part that's bothersome is, as others have said, the butts everywhere. Most often simply flicked and left to burn out, not stomped out. This I hate, especially in the summer when people are wearing thin shoes and sandals... why should someone else have to risk burning their foot on "your" smouldering butt?


Meanwhile; I have been to EuropaPark several times. I can not recall any visit where the smoke was particularly noticeable or memorable in any way. Then again, we usually go on week days, rather than weekend - not knowing what day OP was there, perhaps that's a difference. I imagine that if it were a Saturday, it would be the very worst (more people, more chance for greater number of smokers).
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:20
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Old 01.10.2012, 13:25
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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I'm all for individual liberties, but it's increasingly difficult to get out and mingle with the culture(s) when you are contantly bombarded with smoke. I know this is a tired topic, but my children begged us to take them to EuropaPark. With all the advertising of the "mice" characters and Halloween fun and rides, thought this would be a great family building adventure. We had thought of buying season (year) passes. Unlikely. My children were incredulous of how much and how frequent the smoking... even kids who seemed in their early teens. I can't ever remember (even in my earlier days in the US) of so much second hand smoke. Waiting in lines for 60+ minutes in a never-ending fog of smoke. And these Europeans are the pinnacle of perfection for the US to emulate? Sure, America can learn a few things from Europe, but Germans/Swiss could learn something from Americans in regards to not just logical smoking restrictions but some education to change the image of smoking. There is a stigma and low class association with smoking, rightfully so, in the US. With everything that is known that it does to you long term... Incredible. Even more-so that someone would pay 8 to 10 CHF for this "slavery".
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:28
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

Ive never really had an issue with smoking in the lines at Europa Park... BUT i do agree that there shouldnt be smoking in the ques. The area is too small and cramped.
Yes its outdoors but if your surrounded by people smoking you havent a chance!
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:29
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

I think all the analogies are fine, but the main problem here is that allowing someone to smoke in the presence is proven to be bad for others. If you choose to drink yourself stupid, it's your body you are hurting. But smoking puts toxins in the air that innocent people (non-smokers, children) have to breathe in whether they chose to or not. If you allowed smoking in grocery stores, non-smokers would have no choice but to inhale the toxins because everyone needs to buy food. With regards to restaurants, it is tougher call. One one side, restaurants should have the ability to decide whether to allow smoking in their own restaurants and non-smokers can go elsewhere. But when all the restaurants allow them, non-smokers have no choices. Dealing with it and inhaling toxic smoke from someone else's cigarettes is not an option for many people.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:29
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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I'm all for individual liberties, but it's increasingly difficult to get out and mingle with the culture(s) when you are contantly bombarded with smoke. I know this is a tired topic, but my children begged us to take them to EuropaPark. With all the advertising of the "mice" characters and Halloween fun and rides, thought this would be a great family building adventure. We had thought of buying season (year) passes. Unlikely. My children were incredulous of how much and how frequent the smoking... even kids who seemed in their early teens. I can't ever remember (even in my earlier days in the US) of so much second hand smoke. Waiting in lines for 60+ minutes in a never-ending fog of smoke. And these Europeans are the pinnacle of perfection for the US to emulate? Sure, America can learn a few things from Europe, but Germans/Swiss could learn something from Americans in regards to not just logical smoking restrictions but some education to change the image of smoking. .
The Swiss just recently (2 weeks ago) had a vote on passive smoking
If the vote would have been accepted, then smoking in Switzerland would have had a much greater ban resulting in better passive smoking protection for non-smokers (like me)

Unfortunately, around 65% of Swiss voted against the passive smoking lobby.

My view: in my home country (NZ), the negative health effects of smoking are paid for by the government as part of the national health service. All those lung cancer operations, etc. And so the government started a huge campaign a number of years ago to reduce smoking, as a way to reduce health costs overall. The campaign was a huge success: all kids now think smoking is so uncool. and extremely few people smoke. I think it is something like under 10% across the population.

In Switzerland: the health effects of smoking are paid for by the private individual through their private health insurance. The government has no motivation to stop smoking. And as long as the majority of voters (voters, not people) want to smoke, it will likely stay that way.

My only advice: if you want to change the system, sign every referendum against smoking and make sure you vote!
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:31
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

My mistake. I thought you were refering to this:
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Comparing it to US parks, I would say that overall it is better managed and run and often cleaner..
instead of this:
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More hypocritical behaviour is hard to find.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:32
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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My kids are growing up in a world with less fear and more freedom than in many other places in the world. Second-hand smoke is a small price to pay for this.

They can learn the occupation they want through an education suited to their abilities.
They're growing up in one of the most beautiful areas in the world.
They've got public transportation available to them.
They are even allowed to drink beer and wine at 16 (of which I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages)
Here she goes again. Mrs. Swiss Defense Minister...

You speak for yourself, the OP speaks for himself. For you it may be a "small" price, for the OP it apparently is not.

What's the point in expressing other advantages? CH is good, but could be better. That's the point.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:39
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Here she goes again. Mrs. Swiss Defense Minister...

You speak for yourself, the OP speaks for himself. For you it may be a "small" price, for the OP it apparently is not.

What's the point in expressing other advantages? CH is good, but could be better. That's the point.
The Swiss are at the forefront of medical and technological advances.

My guess is they are simply fully aware that passive smoke is more an annoyance than a real health risk and thus don't take as seriously as the US for example who have more of an interest in the mass manipulation of their society.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:39
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Here she goes again. Mrs. Swiss Defense Minister...

You speak for yourself, the OP speaks for himself. For you it may be a "small" price, for the OP it apparently is not.

What's the point in expressing other advantages? CH is good, but could be better. That's the point.
She does have a very valid point though.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:41
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Here she goes again. Mrs. Swiss Defense Minister...
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:49
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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...
You speak for yourself, the OP speaks for himself. For you it may be a "small" price, for the OP it apparently is not.

What's the point in expressing other advantages? CH is good, but could be better. That's the point.
That thing is in Germany, if I got it right.

Generally, with regards to smoke exposition, I honestly think it has quite never been easier to stay away from smokers' places in the last 150 years than today.

In the contrary to all other kinds of contamination (hormons in drinking water, pollution coming from planes', cars' and lorries' exhausts, industry ... try to keep away from that. ).
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:49
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

With all this smoking in Switzerland, and how much it irritates people, I`m flabbergasted that they continue to stay here? Or continue to visit here?

America - *Land of the Free* - is so much more enjoyable!

Neh?
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:51
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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They are still massively cheap at around 5Euros in Germany and 8CHF in Switzerland, go to Australia and the average price is 16AUD which is essentially double the swiss price and the tax contribution is similiar in percentages. In terms of raising alcohol prices the argument is not as strong as while alcohol can have an effect it is not as proven as cigarette smoking which does kill and is proven, otherwise why do they put big letters on the packs by law, alcohol has no such requirement since it is much less of a killer
This is a somewhat circular argument. "It's not stigmatised, therefore it must not be harmful". You only have to look at attitutes to smoking as little as twenty years ago to realise that this is a nonsense. The fact is that smoking is much moer obvious, and has a much more immediate unpleasant affect on bystanders, so it's been a much easier target for the fundraising institutions of governments all over the world.

Equally importantly, taxation on alcohol has long been the most significant part of the price paid, and together with and other legislation on alcohol use, is used as a means of social control across Europe. In many ways anti-smoking legislation has just been playing catch-up for decades.
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:53
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

Who in their right minds take their children to places where they know smoke is, force their children to endure this and then come back and complain about how thoughtless the smokers are ? Weird...


...and just how much diesel fumes did your transport puff out to get their ?
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:56
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Who in their right minds take their children to places where they know smoke is, force their children to endure this and then come back and complain about how thoughtless the smokers are ? Weird...

Here's the queue for the Big Mega Dipper Flipper roller-coaster from Saturday...
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Old 01.10.2012, 13:59
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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The Swiss just recently (2 weeks ago) had a vote on passive smoking


.

My only advice: if you want to change the system, sign every referendum against smoking and make sure you vote!
You seem to have missed the "point" of why the Swiss voted as they did?

Non-smokers voted against imposing that ban, because they don`t believe in extreme laws.

As the law stands, non-smokers now have smoke-free restaurants to patronise, as opposed to previously where all restaurants allowed smoking.

Shopping mall, supermarkets, in fact all enclosed areas, even festival tents are now smoke-free.

In the open air, if you choose to stand downwind of a person exhaling smoke, well, there is the option of moving upwind.

Cigarette butts on the ground? Why? All public bins have been removed because they were abused by people dumping their household refuse in them to avoid paying for the refuse-bags. Of course, those doing that were probably smokers as well - disgusting low life types!
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Old 01.10.2012, 14:05
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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And as long as the majority of voters (voters, not people) want to smoke, it will likely stay that way.
Based on that logic, as smokers make up less than 1/3 of the voters, and the result was 2:1, smokers are more then 4x likely to vote as non-smokers!

Oh, and I'm a non-smoker, and I still voted no.

Tom
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Old 01.10.2012, 14:10
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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My theory:
Smoker can't go out and climb a mountain or go on a mountain-bike ride with some uphill. Rides like in the Europapark are their only chance to get some sort of "thrill".
Do you really believe this? I realise the lack of a smiley doesn't mean you weren't joking, but worryingly it looks like you might actually be serious.

I've certainly never seen any evidence of a direct link between smoking and the ability to perform moderate or heavy exercise.

Unless you're actually suffering from some smoking-related lung or circulation disease, of course, but that's not true of >99.5% of smokers.
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