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Old 02.10.2012, 10:09
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Is smoking low class
Absolutely NOT.

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...and stupid - absolutely.
Maybe. However everyone has the RIGHT to do stupid things. (BTW: I am a non-smoker, I hate smoke especially when I eat. But outside in open spaces...com' on

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  #122  
Old 02.10.2012, 10:14
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Comparing the vehicle emissions to SH smoke it the most stupidest thing I have ever heard
OK, go and sit next to a vehicle exhaust for a couple of hours then, see how you feel afterwards.

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..maybe smoking damages the brain too
You're obviously an ex-smoker then.
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  #123  
Old 02.10.2012, 10:34
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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..maybe smoking damages the brain too
You're obviously an ex-smoker then.
Ouch! But I guess the ball was just to high....
  #124  
Old 02.10.2012, 10:41
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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I have. Frequently. This refusal by most smokers over the years (imo) lies behind a lot of the current backlash. Non-smokers have realised they don't always have to put up.
Hahahaha, hilarious

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Old 02.10.2012, 11:00
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

People who believe that smoking (or second hand smoke) is not harmful are in the same category as people who believe that global warming is not real. It doesn't matter how many studies you elude to, how many statistics and facts you present or how many scientists and doctors speak on the subject. People who think this way WILL NEVER THINK DIFFERENTLY. This argument will never be resolved as long as people can ignore facts and figures because they contradict what they believe. People who truly think that second hand smoke causes no harm to others are blinded to the facts because to acknowledge them would be admitting that they are wilfully putting others health at risk for their own pleasure. I will use one of my favorite Seinfeld quotes to explain this line of thinking:

George Costanza: "It's not a lie if you believe it"
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  #126  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:09
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Christ, how long did I sleep? I could have sworn it was only September yesterday

#Wake me up, when September ends...
  #127  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:20
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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It doesn't matter how many studies you elude to, how many statistics and facts you present or how many scientists and doctors speak on the subject.
All that fact eluding must be difficult. Bit like hide and seek, then?
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  #128  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:21
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Googling "smoking and exercise" brings up a whole host of links in reference to raised blood pressure, less blood to muscles, decreased respiratory function, etc. Essentially, all things that negatively affect a person's ability to exercise.
I think the problem is the assumption that a 'smoker' must smoke enough to make any effects noticeable. The vast majority of these sorts of studies will be looking at (as we've seen in other replies) people who smoke upwards of 20 cigarettes a day, often much more. And of course people who smoke a lot will also tend to be those who inhale and keep the smoke in longest.

So heavy smokers who inhale a lot are inducing a semi-permanent state of carbon monoxide poisoning, which will of course impact their body's ability to work properly. I'd argue that this in itself represents an illness brought on by smoking.

But that's not true for all people who smoke.
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  #129  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:34
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

"There is a stigma and low class association with smoking, rightfully so, in the US."

Lets not forget the European stigma against fat Americans, of which half the population is classified as obese.
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  #130  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:38
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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"There is a stigma and low class association with smoking, rightfully so, in the US."

Lets not forget the European stigma against fat Americans, of which half the population is classified as obese.
Really, is the figure as low as that?
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  #131  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:42
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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"There is a stigma and low class association with smoking, rightfully so, in the US."

Lets not forget the European stigma against fat Americans, of which half the population is classified as obese.
I'm sure it's all just coincidence...

Poverty..



Quality of Education..


Smoking rates..


Obesity..



Life expectancy..


It's almost as if there's a pattern but I can't quite put my finger on it..
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  #132  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:44
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Really, is the figure as low as that?
Well, actually its 35.7% who are classified as obese (over 92 kg with a BMI above 30), but varies significantly with demographics.

"Non-Hispanic blacks have the highest age-adjusted rates of obesity (49.5%) compared with Mexican Americans (40.4%), all Hispanics (39.1%) and non-Hispanic whites (34.3%)" [See JAMA. 2012;307(5):491-497. doi:10.1001/jama.2012.39], [http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html]

Personally, I'd rather smoke than be fat.
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  #133  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:45
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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People who believe that smoking (or second hand smoke) is not harmful are in the same category as people who believe that global warming is not real. It doesn't matter how many studies you elude to, how many statistics and facts you present or how many scientists and doctors speak on the subject. People who think this way WILL NEVER THINK DIFFERENTLY. This argument will never be resolved as long as people can ignore facts and figures because they contradict what they believe. People who truly think that second hand smoke causes no harm to others are blinded to the facts because to acknowledge them would be admitting that they are wilfully putting others health at risk for their own pleasure. I will use one of my favorite Seinfeld quotes to explain this line of thinking:

George Costanza: "It's not a lie if you believe it"
If a lie is repeated often enough it becomes a truth.

You have merely been told a lie so often you believe it, because you have been presented with language such as 16% increase, 100 times more likely, and other eye catching data.

You have been presented words such as ARSENIC, and BENZENE and reminded of their poisonous composition.

When speaking of secondary smoke many Antismokers will also refer to the "40 carcinogenic compounds" it supposedly contains. In reality only six of those have in fact been classified as "known human carcinogens" (1989 Report of the Surgeon General. pgs. 86-87). Most of the rest of the 40 compounds have shown insufficient evidence of being human carcinogens and many are commonly found in foods, coffee, and the general environment (Science, 258: 261-265 (1992). The exposure of nonsmokers to the six actual human carcinogens is usually so minuscule as to be almost imaginary in nature and is sometimes far less than other everyday environmental exposures.

You’d have to sit in a room with a smoker smoking 165,000 cigarettes to be exposed to as much arsenic as you would get from a large glass of water.

What about the other five carcinogens though? Are nonsmokers likely to be exposed to enough of those to have them correctly perceived as threats? While most of them occur in even smaller quantities than arsenic (naphthylamine, aminobi-phenyl, vinyl chloride and chromium average only about fifteen nanograms apiece), let’s look at the one with the largest quantity present so as to clearly make the case that is least favorable to our own argument. This is benzene: a human carcinogen that cigarettes produce in quantities not measured in picograms nor even in nanograms, but in micrograms, a unit that is one million times larger than a picogram, but still only one one-millionth of a single gram (1989 Report of the Surgeon General. p.87)

The average cigarette produces roughly 300 micrograms of benzene (1986 Report of the Surgeon General. p.130). If the estimates of smoke exposure for the average nonsmoker hold true, then such exposure would equal roughly three tenths of a microgram per hour of sharing a space with a reasonable number of smokers in a decently ventilated public indoor setting.

Benzene is normally found in fruits, fish, vegetables, nuts, dairy products, beverages, and eggs. The National Cancer Institute estimates that an individual may safely ingest up to 250 micrograms in their food per day, every single day of the year. Thus, the "safe" exposure to benzene from one day of a normal diet is roughly equal to the exposure experienced by a nonsmoker sharing an airspace with smokers for over 750 hours. Another way of looking at it would be to compare it to the normal work exposure of a waiter in a decently ventilated Free-Choice restaurant: the waiter would have to work there for four months to receive the equivalent benzene dosage ingested in one day of a "safe" diet.

For those mocking a comparison with vehicle emissions:

In 1994, the Air Resources Board of California estimated that California vehicles emitted close to 50 million pounds (i.e. about 23 billion grams) of benzene per year into the atmosphere of California. At 300 micrograms per cigarette, it would take 70 trillion cigarettes to produce what California\'s vehicles produce in a single year. Try to imagine all the smokers of the entire world, with each and every one of them smoking well over two hundred cigarettes a day, and all crowded into California, and you’ll have a rough comparison to California’s normal vehicle emissions.

The other four human carcinogens in the smoke from a cigarette, all added together, equal less than a single microgram, thus contributing to an exposure for the average nonsmoker in a smoking environment of roughly one nanogram or one one-billionth of a gram per hour (1986 Report of the Surgeon General p. 130, 1989 Report of the Surgeon General p. 87, and Appendix B). Such a level of contact would never be considered as a "risk" for any substance not associated with tobacco smoke.

And what I have always said, based on the circa 43 studies findings, for all to read, when you read from the source in full:

The situation is the same for almost all the compounds in smoke that the Antismokers point their fingers at. Upon examining the amounts of the substances involved and checking the values of OSHA and EPA safe concentrations for them, you would find that you’d have to be locked up in a small unventilated bar with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of smokers before even approaching levels thought to be unsafe by actual government standards. Appendix B presents a number of examples in a well-formatted table. You’ll note that in the real world significant concentrations of any of the supposedly dangerous elements in secondary smoke would never actually occur.
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  #134  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:45
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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It's so typical for someone who can't debate the subject reasonably to go the cheap route of insulting and name-calling.... ....It makes my heart ache to see young children or pretty young girls smoking in their teens or early 20's thinking they are "dancing with the devil". I have friends and had relatives who smoke/smoked for years. Everyone of them wished they had never started and prayed that they had the strength to stop. When it is so accepted and justified and everywhere around you, it's even more difficult to ever stop.

Best regards,
Oh, ffs. Do get over yourself

What is it with [some] American's need to be so bloody hand wringy & pious.

People like you almost make me want to take up smoking again.


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I am not the type to smell a few wafts of smoke and freak out
The evidence would suggest otherwise.

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  #135  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:53
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

Non smokers are some of the most intolerant people I have ever met
When you could smoke in cafes I was sitting with my coffee and my cig ( in the smoking section) a woman comes and sits at my table and tells me to stop smoking ,refused so she moved to another table and kept shouting abuse at me (how I didnt punch her dont know)
It seems as though non smokers are on a crusade(you do all know you will all die as well ??????)
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  #136  
Old 02.10.2012, 11:57
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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Personally, I'd rather smoke than be fat.
Move to Mississippi and do both!

Being neither fat or a smoker is pretty great and perfectly achievable for anyone with a bit of willpower.
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  #137  
Old 02.10.2012, 12:01
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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If a lie is repeated often enough it becomes a truth.

You have merely been told a lie so often you believe it, because you have been presented with language such as 16% increase, 100 times more likely, and other eye catching data.

You have been presented words such as ARSENIC, and BENZENE and reminded of their poisonous composition.

When speaking of secondary smoke many Antismokers will also refer to the "40 carcinogenic compounds" it supposedly contains. In reality only six of those have in fact been classified as "known human carcinogens" (1989 Report of the Surgeon General. pgs. 86-87). Most of the rest of the 40 compounds have shown insufficient evidence of being human carcinogens and many are commonly found in foods, coffee, and the general environment (Science, 258: 261-265 (1992). The exposure of nonsmokers to the six actual human carcinogens is usually so minuscule as to be almost imaginary in nature and is sometimes far less than other everyday environmental exposures.

You’d have to sit in a room with a smoker smoking 165,000 cigarettes to be exposed to as much arsenic as you would get from a large glass of water.

What about the other five carcinogens though? Are nonsmokers likely to be exposed to enough of those to have them correctly perceived as threats? While most of them occur in even smaller quantities than arsenic (naphthylamine, aminobi-phenyl, vinyl chloride and chromium average only about fifteen nanograms apiece), let’s look at the one with the largest quantity present so as to clearly make the case that is least favorable to our own argument. This is benzene: a human carcinogen that cigarettes produce in quantities not measured in picograms nor even in nanograms, but in micrograms, a unit that is one million times larger than a picogram, but still only one one-millionth of a single gram (1989 Report of the Surgeon General. p.87)

The average cigarette produces roughly 300 micrograms of benzene (1986 Report of the Surgeon General. p.130). If the estimates of smoke exposure for the average nonsmoker hold true, then such exposure would equal roughly three tenths of a microgram per hour of sharing a space with a reasonable number of smokers in a decently ventilated public indoor setting.

Benzene is normally found in fruits, fish, vegetables, nuts, dairy products, beverages, and eggs. The National Cancer Institute estimates that an individual may safely ingest up to 250 micrograms in their food per day, every single day of the year. Thus, the "safe" exposure to benzene from one day of a normal diet is roughly equal to the exposure experienced by a nonsmoker sharing an airspace with smokers for over 750 hours. Another way of looking at it would be to compare it to the normal work exposure of a waiter in a decently ventilated Free-Choice restaurant: the waiter would have to work there for four months to receive the equivalent benzene dosage ingested in one day of a "safe" diet.

For those mocking a comparison with vehicle emissions:

In 1994, the Air Resources Board of California estimated that California vehicles emitted close to 50 million pounds (i.e. about 23 billion grams) of benzene per year into the atmosphere of California. At 300 micrograms per cigarette, it would take 70 trillion cigarettes to produce what California\'s vehicles produce in a single year. Try to imagine all the smokers of the entire world, with each and every one of them smoking well over two hundred cigarettes a day, and all crowded into California, and you’ll have a rough comparison to California’s normal vehicle emissions.

The other four human carcinogens in the smoke from a cigarette, all added together, equal less than a single microgram, thus contributing to an exposure for the average nonsmoker in a smoking environment of roughly one nanogram or one one-billionth of a gram per hour (1986 Report of the Surgeon General p. 130, 1989 Report of the Surgeon General p. 87, and Appendix B). Such a level of contact would never be considered as a "risk" for any substance not associated with tobacco smoke.

And what I have always said, based on the circa 43 studies findings, for all to read, when you read from the source in full:

The situation is the same for almost all the compounds in smoke that the Antismokers point their fingers at. Upon examining the amounts of the substances involved and checking the values of OSHA and EPA safe concentrations for them, you would find that you’d have to be locked up in a small unventilated bar with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of smokers before even approaching levels thought to be unsafe by actual government standards. Appendix B presents a number of examples in a well-formatted table. You’ll note that in the real world significant concentrations of any of the supposedly dangerous elements in secondary smoke would never actually occur.
So all those smokers who died of lung cancer would have gotten it anyway? All those warnings on pack of cigs across the globe are just a farse? Doctors have been paid by governments to lie to the public? For what reason? If smoking wasn't horrible, why would anyone care? The point is, it is bad for you and for others. It taxes health care systems and insurances. People love to say that since Switzerland has private health care that it doesn't matter. It does. When smokers use their own "private" insurance far more than non-smokers, premiums go up for everyone. To defend smoking as something that is healthy is as ignorant as those "fat Americans" who think that eating McDonalds everyday is good for you. Admit it, smokers are addicted and instead of admitting their are, they try to make it seem as if it's okay. If you want to smoke in the privacy of your home, or outside or anyplace that won't force the smoke on others, you are welcome in my book. Just please don't try to tell me it is not bad for you!
  #138  
Old 02.10.2012, 12:04
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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People who believe that smoking (or second hand smoke) is not harmful are in the same category as people who believe that global warming is not real. It doesn't matter how many studies you elude to, how many statistics and facts you present or how many scientists and doctors speak on the subject. People who think this way WILL NEVER THINK DIFFERENTLY. This argument will never be resolved as long as people can ignore facts and figures because they contradict what they believe. People who truly think that second hand smoke causes no harm to others are blinded to the facts because to acknowledge them would be admitting that they are wilfully putting others health at risk for their own pleasure. I will use one of my favorite Seinfeld quotes to explain this line of thinking:

George Costanza: "It's not a lie if you believe it"
The problem lies in how you classify "harmful". If you think catching a whiff of it as you pass by someone smoking then the credibility of your argument has just crumbled. If you mean "harmful" as in passive smoking in an enclosed space then perhaps you have a point.

Currently the laws in Switzerland cover this adequately (no smoking in enclosed public places). They are not going to kowtow to people getting their knickers in a twist because they happened to catch a whiff of cig smoke from walking around in the street. And rightly so - it's just ridiculous.

I'm a non-smoker (never even bothered to try it - not a single one) but even I can see that if you go hyper-extreme in your argument to the point where there's not a shred of evidence to support it other than "it's a bit stinky" as I walk past it in the street, it's going to lose credibility. In the words of hip young teenagers - keep it real, man.
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Old 02.10.2012, 12:04
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***snip***
All nicely put and all largely irrelevant (from both sides). Yes that stuff is present in cigarette smoke and I suppose causes a small proportion of the additional cancers smokers get - but largely irrelevant for primary and second-hand smoke. However the major cause of lung cancer is simply the smoke particles themselves, their size and shape and the effect they have when drawn deep into the lungs. An effect that is naturally stronger in smokers but not completely immaterial in second-hand smoke inhalation either.

Unfiltered diesel exhaust is similar.

What you completely fail to address in your postings is the effect of smoke on heart disease. I'll take this from Wiki as I haven't got time to look it up properly...:

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The current US Surgeon General’s Report concludes that there is no risk-free level of exposure to second-hand smoke. Even short exposures to second-hand smoke can cause blood platelets to become stickier, damage the lining of blood vessels, decrease coronary flow velocity reserves, and reduce heart rate variability, potentially increasing the risk of heart attack. New research indicates that private research conducted by cigarette company Philip Morris in the 1980s showed that second-hand smoke was toxic, yet the company suppressed the finding during the next two decades.[
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Old 02.10.2012, 12:04
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Re: EuropaPark - 2nd hand smoke (family fun)

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It seems as though non smokers are on a crusade(you do all know you will all die as well ??????)
Exactly. That's why they are called "Health talibans" in this country.
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