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  #21  
Old 08.10.2012, 19:35
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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It sounds like you don't have a Schengen visa, and that means not being allowed into Greece (or other Schengen countries) either, but the control for this was in Switzerland.
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Also, is it really their job to tell me to 'rather fly over Germany' and secondly, they are public servants, not some private agency who's identities need to be protected. Anyone can call in and ask for the name of the person who handles one's queries.
The problem is that Ireland is part of the EU whereas Switzerland is not. But on the other hand Switzerland is part of Schengen whereas Ireland is not. OP may travel visa free inside all EU countries (Based on this information) but not inside all Schengen countries. That is the sole reason why OP was advised to fly via Germany rather than via Switzerland.
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  #22  
Old 08.10.2012, 19:38
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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It sounds like you don't have a Schengen visa, and that means not being allowed into Greece (or other Schengen countries) either, but the control for this was in Switzerland.

Thanks Anowheels, but I do not need a Visa for Greece, because of Ireland being part of European Community.
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  #23  
Old 08.10.2012, 19:46
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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I suspect you'll dind he answer here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...y/index_en.htm
This is the important part

Your non-EU spouse, (grand)parents or (grand)children do not need to get a visa from the country they are travelling to if:

the country they are travelling to belongs to the passport-free Schengen area (see list below) and they have a residence permit or visa from another country in that area, or
they are travelling with you or travelling to join you and have a residence card issued by any EU country (except the country you are a national of).

The residence card should clearly state that the holder is a family member of an EU national.

Thank you indeed, but I already consulted this site before I left Ireland and the part after the 'or' '' or
they are travelling with you or travelling to join you and have a residence card issued by any EU country (except the country you are a national of).''- this to me indicates that I do not require a visa, as I was traveling with my partner and his valid ID/Passport and I had a valid Visa issued by Ireland, wich satisfies the 'any EU country' condition.
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  #24  
Old 08.10.2012, 19:51
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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The problem is that Ireland is part of the EU whereas Switzerland is not. But on the other hand Switzerland is part of Schengen whereas Ireland is not. OP may travel visa free inside all EU countries (Based on this information) but not inside all Schengen countries. That is the sole reason why OP was advised to fly via Germany rather than via Switzerland.

Thank you. I guess I'll just have to buy another ticket and waste the one I have booked and paid for 18 November, already since before my trip to Greece and book another ticket via Germany.
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  #25  
Old 08.10.2012, 19:56
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

It does sound like if you would need a Schengen visa if you were travelling on your own. From the Schengen FAQ:
http://www.theschengenoffice.com/faq.html

Does the Schengen Agreement / Schengen Visa include all EU countries?


No not all EU countries are part of the Schengen Agreement. Most notably Britain and Ireland ARE NOT part of the Schengen agreement and therefore a resident permit for these countries does not enable you to travel to the Schengen area. You would still require a Schengen visa even as a resident of the UK or Ireland. The Schengen Agreement is a specific agreement between 24 European countries. see: List of Schengen Countries

Traveling with your EU spouse seems to make things fuzzy, though.
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  #26  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:09
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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1) Would it not be possible to fly from Dublin to Athens?

2) Switzerland and Greece are in Shengen, UK and Eire or not. Thus Swiss airports are divided (as is Heathrow with flights to Eire) into non-Shengen (passports required and visas as necessary) and Shengen, where no documents are required (but often checking will still ask for them to verify passengers against tickets). You wanted to cross to the Shengen area inside Zurich airport...

Yes, I understand all this, that If I really need a visa then people working in the Embassy should have told me so, especially since I contacted them well in advance of travelling also, did I present, while arguing with the imigration official the following print out:
http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/...b1-anh02-e.pdf

which, by the way I got verified by the Embassy, only to get to the border and then being forced to pay and being threatened with a CHF650 fine if I overstay or next time if I come without a visa. So I definitely need the correct info. But maybe its best I just avoid this country altogether. I though the Swiss were meticulously precise! heheh
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  #27  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:13
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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It does sound like if you would need a Schengen visa if you were travelling on your own. From the Schengen FAQ:
http://www.theschengenoffice.com/faq.html

Does the Schengen Agreement / Schengen Visa include all EU countries?


No not all EU countries are part of the Schengen Agreement. Most notably Britain and Ireland ARE NOT part of the Schengen agreement and therefore a resident permit for these countries does not enable you to travel to the Schengen area. You would still require a Schengen visa even as a resident of the UK or Ireland. The Schengen Agreement is a specific agreement between 24 European countries. see: List of Schengen Countries

Traveling with your EU spouse seems to make things fuzzy, though.
Yes, especially since I know that Ireland is not part of the Schengen Treaty countries, but they are part of EU, and this is what they have in common with most Schengen Countries, thus, free movement throughout EU. On the other hand, I never ever had the intentions to go outside the airport in Swiss. I needed to transit only. And no-1 knows beforehand if the connecting flight will still be on the same side as the incoming flight - most likely why I was told that I do not need a transit visa.
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  #28  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:14
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Yes, I understand all this, that If I really need a visa then people working in the Embassy should have told me so, especially since I contacted them well in advance of travelling also, did I present, while arguing with the imigration official the following print out:
http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/...b1-anh02-e.pdf

which, by the way I got verified by the Embassy, only to get to the border and then being forced to pay and being threatened with a CHF650 fine if I overstay or next time if I come without a visa. So I definitely need the correct info. But maybe its best I just avoid this country altogether. I though the Swiss were meticulously precise! heheh
Which country issued your EU Fam Visa? This is very important as a visa from Ireland is not on the list!
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  #29  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:18
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Thanks Anowheels, but I do not need a Visa for Greece, because of Ireland being part of European Community.
From what I am understanding, you came in from Ireland, which is outside the Shengen agreement area. You then wanted to go to Greece, which is inside the Schengen agreement, and when you transited in Switzerland, it was the first entry point to the Schengen area, and you were subject to passport controls at that point. Unfortunately, Switzerland has harsher rules than other countries when it comes to EU nationals, because Switzerland is not in the EU.

As the problem arose in Switzerland, your best source of information regarding the regulations and where you went wrong (or not) would be either the Swiss consulate general in Ireland, or the Irish embassy in Switzerland.

As a South African national, you definitely need a visa to enter Switzerland under normal tourist conditions.

Irish citizens don't need a visa to enter Switzerland.

Irish residents (spouse, family) need a Shengen visa to be able to enter Switzerland.

The full information is here:
http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/content/ejp...21.html#a_0021

Under section 2:

"I have a residence permit for GB/ Ireland/ USA/ Canada do I require a visa for Switzerland/Schengen?

Since the Schengen Agreement came into force on 12 December 2008, persons holding a residence permit from Great Britain, Ireland, Canada or a Green Card from the USA require a visa to enter Switzerland / Schengen area. Applications for a Schengen visa can now also be submitted to a Swiss Embassy.
For details, contact the Swiss Embassy responsible for the area in which you live:
Swiss representations"



Now you have a second problem....overstaying your Schengen visa... you did this knowingly, and against the advice of the issuing officer. Now it's likely you have a record, and may be blocked from entering the Schengen area again. This is a bigger problem. It might have been possible to get your visa extended by the swiss consulate general in Greece, at the time, if you had asked. You might also have been able to get a visa for transit purposes, from the swiss consulate general in Greece, if you had explained your situation.
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  #30  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:20
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

It's very confusing!

I think that AbFab hit the nail on the head. Although you need a visa to enter Switzerland, you don't need a visa to transit through Switzerland. However, you can't get on the plane to Greece without entering Switzerland! It's a bit crazy really.

Don't waste your next ticket. Just go get a Schengen visa. I think that would be the easiest.
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  #31  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:22
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Yes, especially since I know that Ireland is not part of the Schengen Treaty countries, but they are part of EU, and this is what they have in common with most Schengen Countries, thus, free movement throughout EU. On the other hand, I never ever had the intentions to go outside the airport in Swiss. I needed to transit only. And no-1 knows beforehand if the connecting flight will still be on the same side as the incoming flight - most likely why I was told that I do not need a transit visa.
There is free movement for EU citizens... not necessarily EU residents. Flights into Switzerland from the UK and Ireland come in on one side and flights within Schengen are on another side, and there are always passport checks for those coming into the Schengen area (whether your final destination is Switzerland or another country within Schengen). As a holder of an Irish resident permit (I'm assuming), you would need a Schengen visa to travel within the Schengen area on your own, but it seems like you would not need it when traveling with your EU partner within EU countries (e.g, to Greece, through Germany). However, because you came into a non-EU country that was part of Schengen, you apparently needed a visa, because your permit is not on Annex 22.

I know, it's so fun, right?
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  #32  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:23
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Also, how do I go about getting justice for this and most of all, a refund, If I infact, according to the many other opinions did not need a Visa afterall?
Hire a lawyer and pay many thousands.

Tom
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  #33  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:29
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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I think that AbFab hit the nail on the head.
Nice, so my posts don't count.

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They should just write that you will in fact need a visa to transit through.
That's the understanding of normal people, but legally, the visa is not for the transit, it's for entrance into the Schengen zone that happens to be inside the airport before proceeding to the transit. Hence the confusing wording, I agree with you there.
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  #34  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:35
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

[QUOTE=Yurona;1683573]I suspect you'll dind he answer here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens...y/index_en.htm

This is not a helpful link. It is an EU link. Switzerland is not part of the EU.

I think it's probably fair to say that the OP will never transit through Switzerland again.

Ireland is outside Schengen but in the EU, Switzerland is outside the EU but in Schengen, and most of us have passports that allow us to move around the EU and Switzerland as a 'tourist' without too much hassle...South Africans get a lot more hassle as they need a tourist visa for Switzerland, Schengen countries, but not Ireland....
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  #35  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:46
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

Oh, and the 90 franks fee was for the issuing of a Schengen visa on arrival. The 650franks fine was for overstaying the visa.

The advice to fly over Germany in my opinion is totally valid. Then you don't need a visa, and are not limited on how long your holiday is as you are wholly within the EU, where you have free travel rights.

The rules are clear (although complicated) and whilst you may have been met with confusion, did you clearly present your photo ID that showed your residency for Ireland ? I suspect the confusion was the biggest stress... the authorities are required to issue a visa on arrival, with minimal fuss, but as they can only issue up to 30 days, they needed to inform you that you would be technically overstaying based on the travel itinerary that you presented.

Did you enquire to the swiss consulate general in Ireland ? They are the relevant authority for the visa problem, and they could have issued you a Shengen visa with minimal fuss. They would also probably have issued a longer visa up-front to match your travel plans.
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  #36  
Old 08.10.2012, 20:59
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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I got this flight because it suited me, as I have a friend whom I wanted to meet in Athens also. And the two airlines that mainly fly from ireland to crete - Aer Lingus stops midway operating flights to and fro Crete, because season's over and Ryanair, was simply too expensive.
Both Aer Lingus & Ryanair are Schedule airlines.
I referred to Charter Flights, that operate in the summer to Crete. Often Charter flights are part of package holiday, but usually one can book them separate & I have good reason to believe they were still operating in September from Ireland. If you do not know what Charter flights / package holidays are, go to a Travel Agent in Dublin and ask.
You wanted to visit a friend in Athens, well you got a ferry to & from Crete, you could also have done that the other way, believe night ferries are around 9hrs and day ferries around 6 to 6.50hrs.
Seems very odd that you would take a flight from Dublin via Zurich with more than a 6hours stop in Zurich on route to Athens.
Others have answered your questions on the visa issue and how to go about it, but I have never heard of anyone in any country get a refund for a visa
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Old 08.10.2012, 22:10
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Nice, so my posts don't count.
Don't cry! Of course, you were right as well.
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Old 09.10.2012, 02:28
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Which country issued your EU Fam Visa? This is very important as a visa from Ireland is not on the list!
Ireland issued my EUFam visa
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Old 09.10.2012, 02:33
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Don't cry! Of course, you were right as well.
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Both Aer Lingus & Ryanair are Schedule airlines.
I referred to Charter Flights, that operate in the summer to Crete. Often Charter flights are part of package holiday, but usually one can book them separate & I have good reason to believe they were still operating in September from Ireland. If you do not know what Charter flights / package holidays are, go to a Travel Agent in Dublin and ask.
You wanted to visit a friend in Athens, well you got a ferry to & from Crete, you could also have done that the other way, believe night ferries are around 9hrs and day ferries around 6 to 6.50hrs.
Seems very odd that you would take a flight from Dublin via Zurich with more than a 6hours stop in Zurich on route to Athens.
Others have answered your questions on the visa issue and how to go about it, but I have never heard of anyone in any country get a refund for a visa
I want to know if the Embassy is right in what they say or whether the border patrol is right, in which case, I let sleeping dogs lie. But in case the Embassy is right, then I have the right to ask why I was charged for a Visa. And secondly, If i have been led to believe that I do not need a transit visa, prior to my departure, I do not see why I could not avail of a relatively discounted flight via Zurich. I do not have a mountain of money waiting to be spent on Charter flights.
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Old 09.10.2012, 02:37
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Re: No-one giving correct information on Visa for EU FAM visa holder

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Both Aer Lingus & Ryanair are Schedule airlines.
I referred to Charter Flights, that operate in the summer to Crete. Often Charter flights are part of package holiday, but usually one can book them separate & I have good reason to believe they were still operating in September from Ireland. If you do not know what Charter flights / package holidays are, go to a Travel Agent in Dublin and ask.
You wanted to visit a friend in Athens, well you got a ferry to & from Crete, you could also have done that the other way, believe night ferries are around 9hrs and day ferries around 6 to 6.50hrs.
Seems very odd that you would take a flight from Dublin via Zurich with more than a 6hours stop in Zurich on route to Athens.
Others have answered your questions on the visa issue and how to go about it, but I have never heard of anyone in any country get a refund for a visa

Besides, I think I have the right to decide upon which flights to buy and what suits my pocket, surely. If only I have been given the right info from the beginning, then I could apply for the visa if required and get on with my holidays.
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