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  #101  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:21
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Considering that second-hand smoke has long been proven to increase the risk for a whole host of illnesses from heart attacks to viral infections by affecting inflammation, the immune response of non-smokers and the blood's clotting ability... Oh I give up.. I don't think you care about the actual effects.
Not actually true, but ok.
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  #102  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:29
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Is this one of those situations where my health threatens others simply because other are not happy with the fact that there exist people that have such a condition?

Cars have a catalytic converter by law.

Considering that second-hand smoke has long been proven to increase the risk for a whole host of illnesses from heart attacks to viral infections by affecting inflammation, the immune response of non-smokers and the blood's clotting ability... Oh I give up.. I don't think you care about the actual effects.
Could you pleace elaborate the difference between smoke from a cigarette (that someone else is smoking) and smoke from a BBQ. Smell doesn't count as you have said it is not a issue of smell. If you get an asthma atack if someone is smoking in the same room as you are, then I don't want to know what happens to you if you approach an open fire...
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  #103  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:37
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Many, but not all, cars have a catalytic converter by law.
FTFY.

Tom

...
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  #104  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:56
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

"Many, but not all, cars have a catalytic converter by law."

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FTFY.

Tom

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And look how well that worked out converting the harmfuls to CO2 lol!
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  #105  
Old 10.12.2012, 17:33
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

Oh I remember our downstairs neighbor who used to heavily smoke cigars!

But he later had problems with his lungs. He died 2 years ago - R.I.P.
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  #106  
Old 10.12.2012, 17:35
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

Oh i remember the guy who used to wear lycra all the time running about everywhere and playing billiards by the lake.

He died of something. RIP

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  #107  
Old 10.12.2012, 17:52
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Cars have a catalytic converter by law..
Smokers also have a "catalytic converter" - it`s called "Lungs".

They purify the smoke that comes back out.
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  #108  
Old 10.12.2012, 18:02
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Is this one of those situations where my health threatens others simply because other are not happy with the fact that there exist people that have such a condition?

Cars have a catalytic converter by law.

Considering that second-hand smoke has long been proven to increase the risk for a whole host of illnesses from heart attacks to viral infections by affecting inflammation, the immune response of non-smokers and the blood's clotting ability... Oh I give up.. I don't think you care about the actual effects.
I'm asthmatic, a smoker, and I have a degree in Chemistry, I also drive.

This is all about exposure and risk no matter what the health nazis tell you.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/asthma/asthma.htm

If you want to know the major cause of increases in asthma prevalence over the last 50 years, then check here and around this subject. Why are asthma rates increasing yet smoking rates decreasing? Think again...

Catalytic convertors do not clean the entire exhaust output. They reduce CO into C02 and NO into N02, additionally unburnt fuels from HxCx into H20/C02 they are not 100% efficient. PM10's are a major problem from diesel cars/trucks.

Secondly you want people to smoke (obviously away from you) from the pure reason if no one did then your pensions would be much more expensive. Your taxes would be higher and a host of other reasons.

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  #109  
Old 11.12.2012, 00:14
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Facts can be a bitch, it's not a generalization when people grab statistics, it's called a statistic and when someone has a compelling argument, you can get upset that it's an "aggressive" argument simply because they're right-- but it's not very logical... I don't think I understand you position, but apparently, just because other people have a position and you don't like their "arguing style," you're being contrarian?

I'm so confused, but this isn't much of a debate since facts are being swept under the rug as an "aggressive arguing tactic."

Pro: Smoking is bad, but you shouldn't care so much
Con: I care because it affects me
Pro: But you don't count because you're weak
Con: I still care
Pro: Get a life!
First of all, facts are facts, but statistics are statistics. And I have it with Winston Churchill and only believe the statistics I forged myself !
- smoking is a negative thing, but "prohibition" is worse, as the prohibition-aera in the USA has proven
- that you care more than other people is absolutely understandable, but should neither lead you into panicking nor into underestimating the dangers for you from perfumery products like Deo-Sprays. I used Deo-sprays for decades but not in the household of Mum, as she also had Asthma (a mild variant, but Asthma nevertheless) and got rather angry about smoking and about the use of Deo-sprays and about a variety of other substances. She in the late 1940ies when she became aware of her predicament took chemistry courses at the ETH
- to have Asthmatic problems, problems with the lymph-lines, problems with Testosterone etc, problems with sections of your body once affected by cancer surgery, such does not mean you are w e a k , it rather means that you have a deeper awareness of the problems than others, BUT there also is the danger that you get panicking and lose objectivity
-
May I add one thing of relevance, to you but not only to you. And that is the indiscriminate use of anti-insect-sprrays in much of the Mediterranean and the heavy use of chlor-stuff in swimming pools in the Med.

Back to anti-smoking legislation in Switzerland. I am fairly optimistic that further measures against smoking will become reality in cantons like Zürich and Basel and Geneva, but NOT in those Cantons who ony have the fairly weak Federal Ban.
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Old 11.12.2012, 00:29
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Is this one of those situations where my health threatens others simply because other are not happy with the fact that there exist people that have such a condition?

Cars have a catalytic converter by law.

Considering that second-hand smoke has long been proven to increase the risk for a whole host of illnesses from heart attacks to viral infections by affecting inflammation, the immune response of non-smokers and the blood's clotting ability... Oh I give up.. I don't think you care about the actual effects.

of course i do, for the above its prolonged, heavy amounts of 2nd hand smoke... you seem to give the impression that if you walk past someone smoking it will cause you serious damage and keel over.
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  #111  
Old 11.12.2012, 00:40
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Could you pleace elaborate the difference between smoke from a cigarette (that someone else is smoking) and smoke from a BBQ. Smell doesn't count as you have said it is not a issue of smell. If you get an asthma atack if someone is smoking in the same room as you are, then I don't want to know what happens to you if you approach an open fire...
Smoke and smoke and smoke are different things. And in case of a Barbecue the "smoke" is something totally different from the "smoke" from a cigarette.

At the other hand, people with Asthma are advised to keep away from all kinds of open fires
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  #112  
Old 11.12.2012, 01:00
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Tricky, but I can't see much of a way out of this unless you are prepared to move out and threaten the landlord with that option too. Selfishness isn't something that you can treat externally I'm afraid.
after you exhausted most of your civilized repertoire you might want to consider that there is one law (of physics) on your side: the law of Gravity. According to this law water has a natural tendency to leak down.
in an old building plumbing tends to be prone to all sorts of problems, if you catch my drift!
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  #113  
Old 11.12.2012, 02:49
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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First of all, facts are facts, but statistics are statistics. And I have it with Winston Churchill and only believe the statistics I forged myself !
- smoking is a negative thing, but "prohibition" is worse, as the prohibition-aera in the USA has proven
- that you care more than other people is absolutely understandable, but should neither lead you into panicking nor into underestimating the dangers for you from perfumery products like Deo-Sprays. I used Deo-sprays for decades but not in the household of Mum, as she also had Asthma (a mild variant, but Asthma nevertheless) and got rather angry about smoking and about the use of Deo-sprays and about a variety of other substances. She in the late 1940ies when she became aware of her predicament took chemistry courses at the ETH
- to have Asthmatic problems, problems with the lymph-lines, problems with Testosterone etc, problems with sections of your body once affected by cancer surgery, such does not mean you are w e a k , it rather means that you have a deeper awareness of the problems than others, BUT there also is the danger that you get panicking and lose objectivity
-
May I add one thing of relevance, to you but not only to you. And that is the indiscriminate use of anti-insect-sprrays in much of the Mediterranean and the heavy use of chlor-stuff in swimming pools in the Med.
Well, my asthma is controlled because I do not use perfume, scented soaps, scented detergents or scented deodorants. Other people's scents don't bother me because I've cut them out of my own life and can handle other's. The only thing that still gets me an attack is cigarette smoke and bug spray. Thankfully, I don't smoke and don't have a bug problem in my flat. Unfortunately other people do smoke in enclosed and covered areas thinking they're just making a bad smell.

Quite frankly, we know the difference second hand smoke makes. Both France and Switzerland have had studies outlining drops in heart attacks in non-smokers since the smoking bans went through. In the canton of Graubunden, the drop was close to 25% when compared to the canton of Luzern. Now this was just one marker, there are plenty more, in France, non-smoking bar owners had a huge drop in the number of viral infections they had after the ban was implemented.

People can smoke all they want, but they shouldn't kid themselves that it's a right or harmless to others. To do so is simply not logical... but I guess humans are emotional beings.
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  #114  
Old 11.12.2012, 09:31
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Both France and Switzerland have had studies outlining drops in heart attacks in non-smokers since the smoking bans went through. In the canton of Graubunden, the drop was close to 25% when compared to the canton of Luzern.
Any such study would be meaningless, as the bans are far too recent to have made any difference until now.

Tom
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  #115  
Old 11.12.2012, 10:56
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Well, my asthma is controlled because I do not use perfume, scented soaps, scented detergents or scented deodorants. Other people's scents don't bother me because I've cut them out of my own life and can handle other's. The only thing that still gets me an attack is cigarette smoke and bug spray. Thankfully, I don't smoke and don't have a bug problem in my flat. Unfortunately other people do smoke in enclosed and covered areas thinking they're just making a bad smell.

Quite frankly, we know the difference second hand smoke makes. Both France and Switzerland have had studies outlining drops in heart attacks in non-smokers since the smoking bans went through. In the canton of Graubunden, the drop was close to 25% when compared to the canton of Luzern. Now this was just one marker, there are plenty more, in France, non-smoking bar owners had a huge drop in the number of viral infections they had after the ban was implemented.

People can smoke all they want, but they shouldn't kid themselves that it's a right or harmless to others. To do so is simply not logical... but I guess humans are emotional beings.
So frustrating when people lie through their teeth or trumpet supposed studies that can not factually be anywhere near accurate based on what we genuinely do know about dieseases and not what people may think.

Although, on the one hand it really shows how gullible and naive some people are.

It will take close to a decade to assess any real statistical drop in diseases caused by smoking and other environmental impacts.

Common sense really, otherwise the population of the world would have nearly been wiped out if heart attacks and other supposed cigarette smoke causing conditions were taking people down at the rate you imply.
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  #116  
Old 11.12.2012, 11:33
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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Any such study would be meaningless, as the bans are far too recent to have made any difference until now.

Tom
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So frustrating when people lie through their teeth or trumpet supposed studies that can not factually be anywhere near accurate based on what we genuinely do know about dieseases and not what people may think.

Although, on the one hand it really shows how gullible and naive some people are.

It will take close to a decade to assess any real statistical drop in diseases caused by smoking and other environmental impacts.

True for lung and other cancers caused by smoking but not apparently for heart attacks where it has been shown that there is a statistically measurable drop in emergency admissions for heart attacks in places where a smoking ban has been implemented.

British Medical Journal link.

This has shown to be true in many different geographical locations.
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  #117  
Old 11.12.2012, 12:02
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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True for lung and other cancers caused by smoking but not apparently for heart attacks where it has been shown that there is a statistically measurable drop in emergency admissions for heart attacks in places where a smoking ban has been implemented.

British Medical Journal link.

This has shown to be true in many different geographical locations.
I have skim read this link and the thing that stands out to me is the results section.

It shows a significant decrease year on year in admissions to hospital 7 years prior to the ban being implemented.

Seems other factors are having an impact, along with the seasonal trends.

Alas, no real analysis can be counted upon in good faith in such a short term, particularly as numbers were falling almost a decade before bans came into place.

The limitations section is interesting also. They discuss a weakness in their study is the fact that levels of population smoking have been dropping anyway, which would impact hospital admissions on its own, and the very fact patients were not differniated from being a smoker or a non-smoker. Thus, it is not known whether it was genuine smoking or the affects of passive smoke that related to the admissions being measured. Thats a pretty fundamental part of the research no?
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Last edited by JBZ86; 11.12.2012 at 12:10. Reason: Limitations
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  #118  
Old 11.12.2012, 12:08
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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I have skim read this link and the thing that stands out to me is the results section.

It shows a significant decrease year on year in admissions to hospital 7 years prior to the ban being implemented.
I think you need to actually read the article before commenting on it
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  #119  
Old 11.12.2012, 12:09
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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I think you need to actually read the article before commenting on it
I just did, thats what it says, I just added more too
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Old 11.12.2012, 12:33
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Re: Smoking issue from neighbours

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The limitations section is interesting also. They discuss a weakness in their study is the fact that levels of population smoking have been dropping anyway, which would impact hospital admissions on its own, and the very fact patients were not differniated from being a smoker or a non-smoker. Thus, it is not known whether it was genuine smoking or the affects of passive smoke that related to the admissions being measured. Thats a pretty fundamental part of the research no?
They do take the limitations into account.

A real world study will always have factors that influence the results that are uncontrollable.

But I read it that these factors had been taken into account.

But I do concede that it appears to be unclear as to whether it's passive smokers or smokers who are having fewer heart attacks.

(Perhaps passive smokers are getting less stressed about it all and aren't working themselves up into a heart-attack inducing frenzy over second-hand smoke?)

But seriously, unless you are still in that stage of denial, induced in the heady years of youth when you think you are invincible, you must concur that smoking is harmful and causes heart-attacks?
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