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  #1961  
Old 07.03.2008, 15:13
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

You don't need me to tell you why I advise Manuella to leave the thread alone, do you?

The internet and threads like this do well to bring out the inner troll in all of us. Even when we don't even know what a troll is. it is not the cleverest thing in the world to join a forum, find this thread and then say

YES, RACIST.

Is it?

Some people, such as yourself spend most of their time here in the belief that progress is being made on this wretched thread. I do discourage people from posting here, of course.

There are people who got banned, left in a huff or got a string of red pearls next to their names all because they started off here. There evolution or eventual status on this forum would have been very different had they not got sucked into the steaming quagmire that this wasteland of a thread is.

Some people do well here, it suits them, sharks can swim with sharks. Sometimes as a moderator one needs to kindly but firmly take a new member like Manuella and say, this way, into the light...

Why leave them to be devoured here?
  #1962  
Old 07.03.2008, 15:30
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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You don't need me to tell you why I advise Manuella to leave the thread alone, do you?

The internet and threads like this do well to bring out the inner troll in all of us. Even when we don't even know what a troll is. it is not the cleverest thing in the world to join a forum, find this thread and then say

YES, RACIST.

Is it?
No mate, but I've been posting on this thread for some time and have begun to develop a thick skin, but What you said wasn't clear, it read to me like you were basically telling her to clear off..

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Some people, such as yourself spend most of their time here in the belief that progress is being made on this wretched thread. I do discourage people from posting here, of course.
As a personal opinion, that's not in question.. You're allowed a personal opinion as are the rest of us, but you're a mod.. Perhaps separating personal opinion from Mod duties would be sensible?? Discouraging people in the same post as I'm THE forum mod (rather than one of the forum mods) does come accross rather agressively.

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There are people who got banned, left in a huff or got a string of red pearls next to their names all because they started off here. There evolution or eventual status on this forum would have been very different had they not got sucked into the steaming quagmire that this wasteland of a thread is.
This thread does come with a warning.. Most of my posts on this site have been on this thread, I've managed to get a few green pearls and far more thanks than groans. Essentially what you appear to be saying is that I'm part of this quagmire you're describing, and my opinion and the opinion of those who've thanked me is irrelelivant and we've got nothing to say..

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Some people do well here, it suits them, sharks can swim with sharks. Sometimes as a moderator one needs to kindly but firmly take a new member like Manually and say, this way, into the light...

Why leave them to be devoured here?
Fair comment, but I really am not commenting on what you're trying to do, just the way you did it.. You were the first to jump in, and your second comment was "I have an itchy finger and I've been called unpredictable" which was really rather threatening rather than the "let me lead you away" thing you say you were trying to acheive..

Perhaps you should make a forum template for this thread so you can instantly respond to people who jump in deep with both feet? "Careful wht you say here, it's a bit of a minefield, you'd do better posting elsewhere." or something??

Perhaps some of the people who jump in here with their first post ARE trolling?
  #1963  
Old 07.03.2008, 15:50
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

There are two mods who watch this space, Evilshell and me. So yes, I am one of them. I did not write THE mod, so don't put upper case in my mouth.

You play your part and I play mine. if you want an opinion on modding and how to lead lambs away from the slaughter, sign up.

I cannot be persuasive enough with some people, hence the itchy finger/unpredictable joke, I guess I could have put on of these next to it.

Since you admit that all of your posts have been here, in the quagmire, it is in your best interest to encourage people to stay a while and voice their eternally echoed opinion on the definition of racism, yawn.

it is my job, no matter the method used, to get them out of here, as we have seen so many times before, it only ends in tears.
  #1964  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:09
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

I m sorry but i still don t understand all of you.
a forum is to dicuss subjects.
not?
discussing is always good and i thought we have freedom of speech.
sorry for the caps..i did not know.
but the thread was there.
i did not make it myself.
and yes it was the first i saw.
that was by luck.
it s not that i read everything and i answered only on this.
but still what is the problem?
is it personal?
are there forbidden issues or taboos in this forum?
why all this noise?
you said you hate this thread.
should i write only what you love?!!!!!
i did not start any war.
i just said my opinion like many others before me.
  #1965  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:11
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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I m sorry but i still don t understand all of you.
a forum is to dicuss subjects.
not?
discussing is always good and i thought we have freedom of speech.
sorry for the caps..i did not know.
but the thread was there.
i did not make it myself.
and yes it was the first i saw.
that was by luck.
it s not that i read everything and i answered only on this.
but still what is the problem?
is it personal?
are there forbidden issues or taboos in this forum?
why all this noise?
you said you hate this thread.
should i write only what you love?!!!!!
i did not start any war.
i just said my opinion like many others before me.
Manuela,

The forum is yours, enjoy. if you feel like it, drop by and introduce yourself in the introductions area.
  #1966  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:19
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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Manuela,

The forum is yours, enjoy. if you feel like it, drop by and introduce yourself in the introductions area.
thank you..
i m sorry again.
i did not mean to be rude.
forgive my ignorance.
i will try to do that introduse thing as long as i find it.
see you
  #1967  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:20
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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1) i am the forum moderator
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There are two mods who watch this space, Evilshell and me. So yes, I am one of them. I did not write THE mod, so don't put upper case in my mouth.
I capitalised to itterate the point, not to put words in your mouth.. You said "the" not "one of the".. That was my point.

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You play your part and I play mine. if you want an opinion on modding and how to lead lambs away from the slaughter, sign up.
No, I have an opinion on this thread therefore I should NOT moderate it.. I can't be impartial.

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I cannot be persuasive enough with some people, hence the itchy finger/unpredictable joke, I guess I could have put on of these next to it.
Newbies don't understand jokes unless you spell it out to them!

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Since you admit that all of your posts have been here, in the quagmire, it is in your best interest to encourage people to stay a while and voice their eternally echoed opinion on the definition of racism, yawn.
"Most" I said.. If you're so disinterested with this thread, stop posting on it! My race has played a huge impact on my life to date, and not by a long shot has this thread consumed me to to point of distraction.. When I get bored of the thread I'll stop posting, I won't discourage others from voicing an opinion on something they have an opinion on. Manuela is right on this.

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it is my job, no matter the method used, to get them out of here, as we have seen so many times before, it only ends in tears.
No, it's your job, as the forum moderator, to prevent blatently abusive or factually incorrect information from being disceminated on this forum and perhaps offer some help and guidance to new comers, but not " whatever the method, get them out of here".. That's really very dictatorial. What happened to freedom of speach and freedom to make choices.

I respect your wish to want to protect innocents, but first make sure they are innocents and second, make sure they want to be protected. I tend to think that people posting on this thread after it's been quiet for a while are not as innocent as you make out.. They're adults who have the right to an opinion, and have a right to express it, so long as they aren't openly offensive.
  #1968  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:23
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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thank you..
i m sorry again.
i did not mean to be rude.
forgive my ignorance.
i will try to do that introduse thing as long as i find it.
see you
Manuela, you are very welcome here and I do see your message - that you agree people can be racist or seem racist. But you've jumped into a very emotive thread and (no reflection upon you) your first language clearly is not English.

You've picked up the don't type in CAPS message so do feel free to Introduce yourself and share your experiences - if you struggle to create a thread, look at the text below each post I make.

This thread is indeed reasonably old and I think we've established that some [Swiss] are racist, some are xenophobic (and skin colour is an easy way to spot differences) and that many are perfectly nice and normal (like me ).

So let's let this thread relax and we look forwards to hearing about your life in the Principality

Edit: this thread is about the question "are the Swiss racist?" so keep it on topic please (again)
  #1969  
Old 07.03.2008, 16:23
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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thank you..
i m sorry again.
i did not mean to be rude.
forgive my ignorance.
i will try to do that introduse thing as long as i find it.
see you
The introductions can be found here

Don't be sorry, all I want to do is show you a far more interesting aspect of the forum. Take some time to look around the place, you'll see what I mean.
  #1970  
Old 10.03.2008, 10:57
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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I had a bizarre encounter today with a Swiss woman at Zurich airport. She asked me in German how to get to an American airline check-in, then realising I was English, strated to chat in English. She told me that she has been back in Switzerland for 10 days visiting family, but has lived the last decade in the USA and can't wait to get back. She said - unaware of the complete irony - that Switzerland is not the same anymore as it's full of immigrants. I was gob-smacked, and embarassed at her ignorance, saying this to me, an English person living in Switzerland (I told her this) and she herself is a Swiss living in the USA.
I still can't decide if the Swiss are more racist than any other nation. I think there is an ignorant mistrust of "foreigners" that you might not find in a more long-established multicultural society.
Your experience made me chuckle out loud - thank you for sharing it!
For me, the irony is that that the ignorance you identified and it's associated fear + lack of will to embrace social change (which is inevitible afterall) is at the the root of so called institutionalised racism/prejudice in the majority, wherever it occours. I believe that your observation is a classic and as such I think you are correct to be motivated to question & chalange it - indeed if we do not make our contrasting opinions known to the wider society then we are failing to effect change (of opinion) within it. I'm not suggesting that we should become evangalists but that we should not accept the opinion or attitude of others just to avoid a confruntation of debate. Through this debate for example I am realising that Tollerance by all parties, at least in the short term, allows us to gain a deeper appreciation of how pepole arrive at their current opinion and hopefully we can come to accept that it literally not simply a case of black & white.

Thanks again guys.

P.S. I am now going out to buy the Beyond Chocolate book to help my understanding.
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Old 16.03.2008, 20:26
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Hello all. I thought since I'm Swiss (from the Swiss German speaking part) I'd like to explain why some Swiss people especially the older generation react to foreigners in a way, that might feel like they are being racists. It is true, that a lot of the Swiss are hostile towards foreigners, not because they are racists, but maybe they are afraid of not being able to talk to them (not speaking their languages), never have lived abroad, travelled etc. I personally have travelled and lived abroad, and I'm always interested in meeting new people from all walks of life. You'll find, if you meet Swiss who have also travelled, they approach you in a different manner. Where as older people are still afraid of foreigners, this goes back to the 2nd World War, when we were almost invaded by Hitler. So it is understandable if elderly Swiss are a bit scared and reserved. And also they normally don't speak another language, apart from High-German. We (Swiss) also tend to be a bit closed-up. Swiss open up slowly, but once a Swiss made friends with a foreigner they stay friends, and one can count on them. The Germans joke about us, they say, we are slow in making decisions......
Verena
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  #1972  
Old 17.03.2008, 15:07
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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You don't need me to tell you why I advise Manuella to leave the thread alone, do you?

The internet and threads like this do well to bring out the inner troll in all of us. Even when we don't even know what a troll is. it is not the cleverest thing in the world to join a forum, find this thread and then say

YES, RACIST.

Is it?

Some people, such as yourself spend most of their time here in the belief that progress is being made on this wretched thread. I do discourage people from posting here, of course.

There are people who got banned, left in a huff or got a string of red pearls next to their names all because they started off here. There evolution or eventual status on this forum would have been very different had they not got sucked into the steaming quagmire that this wasteland of a thread is.

Some people do well here, it suits them, sharks can swim with sharks. Sometimes as a moderator one needs to kindly but firmly take a new member like Manuella and say, this way, into the light...

Why leave them to be devoured here?
In the interests of all things Mark today I thought I'd bump this one and kick it off again. Sorry Gooner. I know the SVP was one of his favourite political subjects, so why not.

I talked to Mark about this thread at the xmas party amongst other subjects (heavy going eh), some comments are funny, some cringworthy and some you can see the vets "circling".

This thread embodies EF and tends to bring out the true characters in people.

I believe I'm one of the few that have read all 1900 posts, some effort was required and a Saturday afternoon with several cups of tea and a bacon sandwich.

I personally find the thread quite entertaining and the flame bait/troll levels it provides on a weekly if not daily basis is highly entertaining.

Gooner, true this thread is full of sharks, but something has to keep us entertained right?

In all seriousness I reckon locking this thread at 2k posts is more than enough to discuss the subject..

< I can hear the mods gasping as we speak, oh no not another post! >
  #1973  
Old 17.03.2008, 15:35
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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Hello all. I thought since I'm Swiss (from the Swiss German speaking part) I'd like to explain why some Swiss people especially the older generation react to foreigners in a way, that might feel like they are being racists. It is true, that a lot of the Swiss are hostile towards foreigners, not because they are racists, but maybe they are afraid of not being able to talk to them (not speaking their languages), never have lived abroad, travelled etc. I personally have travelled and lived abroad, and I'm always interested in meeting new people from all walks of life. You'll find, if you meet Swiss who have also travelled, they approach you in a different manner. Where as older people are still afraid of foreigners, this goes back to the 2nd World War, when we were almost invaded by Hitler. So it is understandable if elderly Swiss are a bit scared and reserved. And also they normally don't speak another language, apart from High-German. We (Swiss) also tend to be a bit closed-up. Swiss open up slowly, but once a Swiss made friends with a foreigner they stay friends, and one can count on them. The Germans joke about us, they say, we are slow in making decisions......
Verena
Verena, thanx for your opinion.
Thing is, quite some foreigners have been treated in an arrogant way.
I don't think the problem of most foreigners is the language. Sure, We all have difficulty with the dialect and I do not understand why some swiss are reluctant to speak high-german.

But still, many people are low-key when it comes to migration matters. I find people here ask a lot more than (for example) EU-citizens, "why are you here". And I also believe the way one will be asked in Switzerland is different, than in other countries.
Apart from that, I find that the Germans are a lot less wanted, than other countries' minorities, or "common foreigners".

I do understand that beeing surrounded by the big EU, which does press for more open borders and relaxed regulations for the EU citizens in Switzerland, can make the Swiss people skeptic.
But after I heard my ex boss announce that he won't hire any more Germans (yes, in front of a German empolyee) and after some strange manners I myself had to put up with, I personally tend to believe, that the Swiss could be a bit more open...
  #1974  
Old 17.03.2008, 15:36
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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Hello all. I thought since I'm Swiss (from the Swiss German speaking part) I'd like to explain why some Swiss people especially the older generation react to foreigners in a way, that might feel like they are being racists. It is true, that a lot of the Swiss are hostile towards foreigners, not because they are racists, but maybe they are afraid of not being able to talk to them (not speaking their languages), never have lived abroad, travelled etc. I personally have travelled and lived abroad, and I'm always interested in meeting new people from all walks of life. You'll find, if you meet Swiss who have also travelled, they approach you in a different manner. Where as older people are still afraid of foreigners, this goes back to the 2nd World War, when we were almost invaded by Hitler. So it is understandable if elderly Swiss are a bit scared and reserved. And also they normally don't speak another language, apart from High-German. We (Swiss) also tend to be a bit closed-up. Swiss open up slowly, but once a Swiss made friends with a foreigner they stay friends, and one can count on them. The Germans joke about us, they say, we are slow in making decisions......
Verena

dear verena,
racism was alsways about fear and nothing else.
fear and ignorance.
it was the same with coloured people and it will be the same always.
i am happy that our generation are more clever to distinguise reasonable fear from imaginary one.

as for wars.. i m from greece which means wars and wars and only wars.
should i be rasist?

all of us have a good explanation for the reason we are bad to some people even the killers themselves but what make someone a good person is to not let these reasons rule his behavior.

i am against not of swiss people but against eveyone no matter what is bad due to internal insecurity.


i don t know you for me means you could be good and bad.
  #1975  
Old 17.03.2008, 15:41
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

In the interests of sanity, I've decided not to post on this thread after this..

True, the thread has brought out the true troll in most of us, but given that I've actually got a real life living among the Swiss, and finding them in general a nice, kind thoughtful people, who may have some habits I find strange, but that makes them all the more interesting for an amateur anthropologist.

I tend to agree that I've said everything I can usefully find to say, about three times for people who can't be bothered to read. I really can't be bothered to argue with people who have their blinkers on and certainly don't wish to keep the company of people who would sooner spit at me than talk to me if they met me face to face, so there's nothing worth writing any more.. And with me gone, this thread will probably take another 2 years to reach that magic 2nd millenium.

I'll leave you all with one parting thought.. If you've met all 7 million Swiss living here, and spoken to each at length, then you're welcome to make a sweeping statement about their attitudes, racist or not, but given that's very unlikely, and given the incredible diversity of attitudes, accents languages and ways of living and means of earning money that can be found in 1 valley, let alone a whole canton or even the country, how can anyone, even a Swiss person, speak for this country as a whole?? I imagine that there are many people living in this country, Swiss or otherwise, who are passionately racist, and there are many other people, who are passionately anti-racist, and between those two extremes the ordinary people live.. Occasionally judging people they don't know based on their skin colour, and occasionally taking the time to get to know people of different ethnic origin well enough to completely forget that there is this imagined difference between people because of the colour of their skin, and just enjoying their company as people and friends.

And at this point I'll leave it, to go and spend some time in the real world with real people, it's been entertaining.. See you all on a different thread!
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  #1976  
Old 17.03.2008, 16:14
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

JonP, I like to assume you weren't refering to everyone in this thread.
We are all exchanging our opinions and personal experiences.
Sure, some may be completely negative and prejudge the Swiss.
But do allow the rest of us to form an opinion, even without getting to know every Swiss citizen.
  #1977  
Old 17.03.2008, 16:23
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

I think JonP has summed this up nicely.

I'm going to close this thread for now - but if you have something useful and constructive to add, please do PM me and I'll happily open it for you to add a comment. Do bear in mind that I will need convincing - but I am in no way closed to the idea.

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  #1978  
Old 27.04.2008, 03:23
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A Case of Mistaken Identity? a personal take on racism here & there

I'm quite new to this forum and I was just looking at the thread "are the Swiss racist?". I wanted to add something because I seem to have a totally different point of view to most of those generally expressed in that thread - but the thread was closed. However, I'd like to share my experience on this subject.

I was surprised to see that people wrote that the Swiss schools are not integrating the children from elsewhere, because I know they used to have special classes to help bring the foreign kids quickly up to scratch with their French so that they could then keep up with the rest of their contempories.

My eldest daughter and my youngest daughter (who is in her last year in public school) have always had friends from all over the world, as I have, and they all seem perfectly integrated. In fact, from my experience, the Swiss totally integrate people who have grown up in the system and speak without an accent, but are more wary of people who speak with an accent. Skin colour seems to be less important than accent.

Last year I taught in the Swiss public schools and had kids of every nationality and different racial origins and these kids all got on together and seemed more interested in their cultural differences than anything else. I think there is a problem in the Geneva school system nowadays- because so few of the kids are Francophone, so the level is not as high as it was. This is what I've been told anyway. But I was always very impressed with the way that all the children were treated the same by the teachers and found the school system very good.

My eldest daughter takes after her Dad , who is Mauritian, and is quite dark skinned. She did all her schooling in Switzerland and never encountered any racism. However, when she was in University in the UK, she experienced several rather unpleasent racial incidents, one of which was very scary. Being a beautiful girl she had been asked to do some modelling and was on a shoot out in the Kent countryside when a group of Hells Angels (if I remember correctly) with pitbulls started to make racist slurs to provoke the cameramen she was with, who were outnumbered five to one or more. They had stopped for a beer in a country pub at the time. The funny thing was that it was the girls in the group who started the insults and, because she hadn't encountered racism while living here or anywhere else for that matter, my daughter had no idea that the remarks were directed at her and started to look around to see where the unfortunate "Paqui" was who was being told to "go home!" etc. When it slowly dawned on her that she was the target who was being ordered back to a country where she has no ties, she was first amazed and slightly amused - but eventually became quite scared. I remember her explaining to someone back here in Geneva that when she was in Switzerland she was the exotic pineapple in the bowl of fruit, but in the UK she became a common potatoe. On another occasion she was hired to help organize a street party in Carnaby Street and was up a ladder putting up the decorations she had made, when a group of black youths stared to walk all over her materials. She came down the ladder and gave them a ticking off. One of them kicked her in the shins and then they also started shouting "Paqui go home". She was pregnant at the time and a Turkish woman joined in and told her she shouldn't be working in her condition. On yet another occasion she and her boyfriend had cans thrown at them from a car, this time by a group of Asians who obviously objected to a white guy with one of "theirs".

Now she lives in the US, where she blends in to the melting pot, but for some months after September 11th she felt that people were "looking at her". Luckily that period didn't last long. Both she and I find the people in New York very friendly, whereas others describe them as "rude" - so in the end I expect it all comes down to personal experiences and how they effect one.
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