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  #181  
Old 10.02.2014, 19:00
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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If only there were a web site where you could directly ask people who lived there, and spoke English.
It does exists (haha), but it's only one alternative to the many options available.

In fact, I was especially referring to Google because that person used it to attempt providing a decent justification ( i.e. "where to buy bath towels in Geneva" ) indeed and see what nonsensical answers google throws back.

To be clear: if one would spend a few seconds to think about it, then Google would not provide "nonsensical" answers but very efficient results.

It's a tool, maybe too advanced for some cavemen who prefer to groan about it.
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  #182  
Old 10.02.2014, 19:09
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

Welcome to the Matrix...

Now... I have a question !

Should I take the red pill or the blue one ?
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  #183  
Old 10.02.2014, 19:10
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Welcome to the Matrix...

Now... I have a question !

Should I take the red pill or the blue one ?
Take them both. It's called hedging your bets.
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  #184  
Old 10.02.2014, 19:32
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

A platform for Genevans who are desperate for towels indeed exists. But since there are only a few of us at this end of our community, I am not surprised people rarely post. Everyone is gonna rip on a confused Romandie noob. Have mercy with us and patience, things are roughly 40% more expensive than where you lucky German speakers live, including the towels, I am sure. Life in Geneva is not convenient at all, when one arrives. I didn't care, tbh, there are worse things to be phased by, but can imagine some people to be overwhelmed. Not everyone gets street smart fast, relocation wise.
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Old 10.02.2014, 21:20
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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PS2: Geneve is a french speaking canton, if you expect to find more appropriate local results in a "first search" then I'd suggest you think about it first. I've done the same question in french, and in the first page you get many shop ideas. It's also possible in English directly, but you need to be a bit more clever in your search query.
You're right about this, of course. On the other hand, I think people might come to the English Forum to ask things like this because they don't know how to look for it in French (or German), and they hope that someone who has had the experience before them AND who is happy to briefly share their experience might have mercy and offer some help. I'm guessing they are assuming that people who would prefer not to offer help will ignore their query. I very much agree we should all learn the language of the place where we are moving to, but we have to start somewhere, and what we're looking for might still be a year away in the curriculum, and might be called something different in Switzerland than it is in the textbooks.

It is very nice to have the social expectations of frequent posters spelled out straightforwardly as they are in this thread, since social expectations are so different in different parts of the world and even in different communities in the same part of the world, and even in different on-line forums. I must say that the definitions of what is inconsiderate vs. polite here are almost the opposite of what I have experienced in all other settings I have ever been a part of, including on-line forums. But with the expectations spelled out (esp. the part about writing out what you have already tried), it's definitely handle-able.

Last edited by jtangpublic; 10.02.2014 at 21:22. Reason: typo
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  #186  
Old 10.02.2014, 21:45
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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That is the very reason why we should not "ignore" and let people posting crap without replying: because then that's the only thing visible...
THIS.

It takes only a moment to welcome a newbie and point him or her in the right direction. Same to read a nasty reply and counteract it with a pleasant one. I have noticed since starting this thread, OP has not posted a welcome on any newbie thread. Complain about the negative folks if you wish but if you just walk away you're not much better than the person who made an unhelpful or mean comment, imho.
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  #187  
Old 10.02.2014, 22:20
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

On the occasions I have used the EF search to look for something, I've ended up scrolling through threads where the first post has been the exact subject I was after, and there follows 5 pages of drivel and <automoderated>hole comments on yet another bait-the-newbie trollfest.

Seriously folks, the signal-to-noise ratio is much diminished on this forum of late.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #188  
Old 10.02.2014, 23:29
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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THIS.

It takes only a moment to welcome a newbie and point him or her in the right direction. Same to read a nasty reply and counteract it with a pleasant one. I have noticed since starting this thread, OP has not posted a welcome on any newbie thread. Complain about the negative folks if you wish but if you just walk away you're not much better than the person who made an unhelpful or mean comment, imho.
Very observant

Of course you are right, I don't do 'welcoming' posts, I actually don't really see the need for 'introductions and welcomes'.
They don't bother me, I just don't do them. A bit like RIP threads (but opposite), I don't do them either, although thankfully there aren't many on here.

What I will do though is if someone asks a question regardless whether it's their first post or 10,000 post and I know the correct answer I will answer it.
I also dish out a lot of thanks and rep where I see fit particularly to new posters.
What I certainly don't do is give new posters a hard time well, not in an arrogant/nasty way, if they ask a 'stupid' question.
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  #189  
Old 10.02.2014, 23:35
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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the signal-to-noise ratio is much diminished on this forum of late.
Welcome back!
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  #190  
Old 10.02.2014, 23:36
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

Touché

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Welcome back!
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  #191  
Old 11.02.2014, 09:46
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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THIS.

It takes only a moment to welcome a newbie and point him or her in the right direction. Same to read a nasty reply and counteract it with a pleasant one. I have noticed since starting this thread, OP has not posted a welcome on any newbie thread. Complain about the negative folks if you wish but if you just walk away you're not much better than the person who made an unhelpful or mean comment, imho.
Well although your post looks nice, it's a bit biased.
I have the impression, with the latest posts, that everyone is using the obvious and easiest argument available, while stereotyping it a little:
"a newbie asking a question".
And then everyone is having a go at how it is good and how we should be friendly back, and how anything bad is not tolerated and lack of education.

And here, I would agree with that.

BUT

If one observe a bit better, the situation is not that simple or perfect.
It's not about "anyone asking questions" but its all in the "how they are asking".

Someone quoted a fact, an event which occurred: once someone came, asked a stupid question, everybody was trying to be nice, and that newbie started to complain.

Or another biased example because I was involved:
Someone was asking about "how to identify why they have high electricity bill" and I replied with complete calculations on how to do that manually to be told off for being "condescending" while explaining the calculations.


So please don't confuse "asking a question" vs "having an idiotic behavior".


Which raises questions:
-What level of stupidi,erm I mean intelligence I are we supposed to tolerate?

-Are we supposed to ignore spreading bad behaviors and information like it was suggested? For example are we suppose not to comment when someone is doing libel or insulting a local business based on allegations?

- Are we supposed to let not educated people spread their negativity without replying?

-Are we supposed to lower the bar and be kind to alleged victims all the time?

I don't think so, and that's my opinion, which is not everyone's. In an attempt to change this situation, I suggested someone new to have their first posts being assisted by a mod. Some have replied its not doable, and obviously other don't care. Some have also called it "censorship".


So let's end it here:
It's not going to change.
Everyone is supposed to have best behavior, but its not always happening.
People behaving badly will likely to attract bad behaviors back.
Not everyone cares about it anyway.
Some people, instead of behaving like victims should be told to enhance their interaction with others.

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  #192  
Old 11.02.2014, 10:41
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

Sorry... but if a new user to the forum asks a simple question then, in my opinion, one should do one or more of the following...

a) Answer with relevant and correct information
b) Ask for more details if the original question is not specific or understandable enough
c) Suggest other sources where the correct information can be found
d) Suggest ways of improving the presentation or the placing of the question - i.e. by suggesting to provide more specific details or in a more understandable format or in a specific thread.
e) There is no e, f, g or "what if the OP is a troll", ill-mannered, ignorant, does not deserve an answer or whatever.

As we were taught when we were kids... two wrongs do not make a right. Answering posts with rudeness and then trying to justify that rudeness by suggesting that the OP should be more polite, or is maybe a troll, or even did not return again to the forum after being insulted and thus deserved to be treated in such a way, is, quite frankly, well... need I say more ?

So maybe "e)" should be "ignore"

Having said that, all forums are subject to varying levels of etiquette and often remarks that are made in print do not convey the same meaning when spoken. So far on my journey of discovery through the Matrix of EF, I have seen numerous posts of rather dubious levels of etiquette, political correctness or politeness, but they are vastly outnumbered by the thousands, or maybe millions, of posts that are helpful, kind, entertaining and interesting.

Which is why I have taken the red pill.
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  #193  
Old 11.02.2014, 10:45
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Sorry... but if a new user to the forum asks a simple question then, in my opinion, one should do one or more of the following...

a) Answer with relevant and correct information
b) Ask for more details if the original question is not specific or understandable enough
c) Suggest other sources where the correct information can be found
d) Suggest ways of improving the presentation or the placing of the question - i.e. by suggesting to provide more specific details or in a more understandable format or in a specific thread.
e) There is no e, f, g or "what if the OP is a troll", ill-mannered, ignorant, does not deserve an answer or whatever.

As we were taught when we were kids... two wrongs do not make a right. Answering posts with rudeness and then trying to justify that rudeness by suggesting that the OP should be more polite, or is maybe a troll, or even did not return again to the forum after being insulted and thus deserved to be treated in such a way, is, quite frankly, well... need I say more ?

So maybe "e)" should be "ignore"

Having said that, all forums are subject to varying levels of etiquette and often remarks that are made in print do not convey the same meaning when spoken. So far on my journey of discovery through the Matrix of EF, I have seen numerous posts of rather dubious levels of etiquette, political correctness or politeness, but they are vastly outnumbered by the thousands, or maybe millions, of posts that are helpful, kind, entertaining and interesting.

Which is why I have taken the red pill.
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  #194  
Old 30.05.2014, 00:32
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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I think a lot of Newbies could benefit from taking a few minutes to browse the forum to see what the general tone is. There is a LOT of sarcasm here from bored office workers EF:ing to pass the time so one needs to be prepared to that. Its also bit of a "secret club" that demands a proper introduction and pleasantries as if all this happened IRL and not on an anonymous internet forum.

Like someone posted above; comparing the forum to meeting a group of people at Paddys. Really? I mean - really? Play WoW much?

In addition ive noticed senior members here tend to get a bit too sensitive, they jump at any chance to correct the behavior of a poster they deem "rude". Also, should they views and opinions of the TS differ vastly from that of senior members - the bashing of said TS will go well beyond the borders of simply debating the topic in question, it will be a total character assassination forever scaring away the poster from the forum. Ive seen threads started to warn the forum that a un-likable member has started posting again. Like the gathering of an angry cyber mob with pitchforks and torches.

The notion of senior members "owning" the forum and having superiority of junior members is ridiculous. It don't matter if its your first post or your 3000:th post.

in short, the senior "secret club" members should get a life and new posters should be extra pleasant.

EF is not perfect, some people here are smug assholes. However it is a very laid-back place with a lot of laughs and a life saver if you need quick input on various topics, its a very active and helpful forum. If you tune to it you will have a good time but whatever you do, don't post a thread asking "where can i buy bath towels in geneva".
I missed this one. 100% agree, on the pros and cons. For me it is refreshing to read a handful of members (some new, some veterans) who actually tend to pop up here and there retaliating the 'secret club'.

And yes, the informative part is what keeps me coming back (receiving and giving, when possible). Good post.
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  #195  
Old 30.05.2014, 00:40
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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Ever wished somebody who sneezed "good health"?

Almost all the time and out aloud, as have lived many years in Egypt.

But I do get very funny looks when I do so in the UK.
In English we say "Bless you" Because in the olden days people believed the devil could sneak inside you when you sneezed.

We might say "To your good health" when starting to drink an alcoholic drink, in a group or just together.
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  #196  
Old 30.05.2014, 02:15
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

This is perhaps one of the best posts I've read. Can't believe I missed it.

Here are my 0.02 CHFs:

I truly sympathize with the OP. At least this was my first impressions of the EF. I also found that offering my comments in a readable and reasonably articulate manner results in (mostly) informative responses.

On the other hand, there have been times when I have been on the receiving end of verbal hazing and as I read back through some of my posts, I have to say I was really "asking for it." Sometimes I am not afraid of putting my proverbial foot in my mouth.

But the entertainment value of reading some of the posts and responses is really priceless and always keeps me coming back despite the general tendency of EFers to lean towards the "tough love" approach.

In the end, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Ask normal non-stupid questions and you will probably be okay. As for the responders, it's okay to be witty and a bit sarcastic but don't bully the newbies to the extent that they never return.

In the mean time, lets at least try to have some fun.
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Old 30.05.2014, 09:11
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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In the end, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. Ask normal non-stupid questions and you will probably be okay. As for the responders, it's okay to be witty and a bit sarcastic but don't bully the newbies to the extent that they never return.
From my point of view, I don't even care that people ask what could be perceived as "stupid" questions where two brain cells and a click through Google would probably answer 95% of questions. It's sometimes the way the question is posed; only half the information given, no background, no context, which then leaves the subsequent responses open to misinterpretation, which is then met with an indignant backlash from the noob.

There's no such thing as a "stupid" question but there is such a thing as being polite and gracious when you do ask one.
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Old 30.05.2014, 09:20
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

I prefer the Spanish "¡Jesus!", it's the only time I utter his name
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Old 30.05.2014, 10:14
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

It would be nice if people thought back to how it felt to be a stranger in a new country before they answered newbies' questions.

I recently asked if anyone could recommend an English-speaking optician. The first two replies were " why English-speaking?" and "don't you have a German-speaking friend who can go with you?"

Those might have seemed like reasonable replies to the person who posted them, but I'm new, I don't speak the language, I haven't made any friends yet, so those responses really just felt like they were rubbing my nose in it for no good reason.

I know it takes extra effort to be kind in a text-based medium, so I try not to take it personally, but it would be nice if people remembered that there's an actual human being at the other end of the "stupid" question.
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Old 30.05.2014, 10:39
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Re: The Treatment of New Posters

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It would be nice if people thought back to how it felt to be a stranger in a new country before they answered newbies' questions.

I recently asked if anyone could recommend an English-speaking optician. The first two replies were " why English-speaking?" and "don't you have a German-speaking friend who can go with you?"

Those might have seemed like reasonable replies to the person who posted them, but I'm new, I don't speak the language, I haven't made any friends yet, so those responses really just felt like they were rubbing my nose in it for no good reason.

I know it takes extra effort to be kind in a text-based medium, so I try not to take it personally, but it would be nice if people remembered that there's an actual human being at the other end of the "stupid" question.
I agree with you. I don't know what's tempting some to jump in with cheap put dows or immediately starting to question OPs need to ask. Complexes? Or simple brainfarts not realizing how harsh it will come out. Or wanting to entertain. It's at times absurd..People should lay off the PC when they start showing lack of patience, get some life since they wouldn't often dare to be as snarky or hostile, face to face.

Overall, people seem kind though, helpful. Some OPs also waltz in assume it's our duty to offer info instantly and high quality. Or do their homework.

(I am not deleting that homework thread. It stays.)
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