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  #61  
Old 13.06.2014, 17:40
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I really feel for you. Maybe one last "trick" before you go legal. Since Air France is partly owned by the state (biggest shareholder), it falls under the wing of the Ministry for Transport. I got the name and address of the Minister:

Frédéric Cuvillier

Secrétaire d'Etat chargé des Transports, de la Mer et de la Pêche, auprès de la ministre de l'Ecologie, du Développement durable et de l'Energie

Adresse :
Hôtel de Roquelaure
246, boulevard Saint-Germain
75007 - Paris
Adresse postale :
75700 Paris
Tél. 01 40 81 21 22

Internet
> Le site du ministère de l'Écologie du Développement durable et de l'Énergie
> Page contact du site

Write the letter in English and send a copy to all the AF staff you've been dealing with. This should scare the hell out of them if they know the big boss is being contacted!

...I forgot: you should mention you've followed all the routes, been met with a wall of silence, misleadings, dishonesty and INSIST that you feel this is giving such a poor image of France you felt it was your duty to inform one of its most distinguished servants of the laxism of some of their staff, letting the company but also their country down...bla, bla, bla...It's all b***** but you've got nothing to loose. I'll help you compile a letter in French if you wish and e-mail me privately.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.06.2014 at 03:01. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #62  
Old 13.06.2014, 18:39
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

I also have the greatest sympathies for you.

Airlines, and most large corporations it seems, place obstacles in the path of those wishing to lodge a complaint.

Gone are the postal addresses, the fax numbers and emails addresses to whom complaints may be sent. In their place are telephone numbers and online contact forms, both of which usually do not provide any record of lodging a complaint. The complainant is left going round in circles in the hope that he or she will eventually disappear.

A couple of years ago I had a serious complaint with Swiss Airlines relating to the delayed arrival of the luggage of my daughter and myself, and the cancellation/re-routing of the flight of my daughter.

The online contact form on the airline's website produced no response whatsoever, but I got some responses from them when I started complaining on their Facebook page. A very sweet apology came along with an offer of about 10000 miles and a couple of email addresses.

I informed the airline that the offer of the miles was bordering on being an insult and I kept on pushing - following up on those email addresses as well as lodging a complaint on line and by email with FOCA, and also by enlisting the support of the organisation "EU Claim".

Over a period of about five months I received three separate payments from Swiss Airlines into my Postfinance account : one for about CHF 117 to compensate for items we purchased due to the delay in our luggage, CH 80 to compensate for telephone costs, refreshments and taxi costs of my daughter for her delay and for the fact that she was delivered to Heathrow and not London City Airport, and a third payment of just over CHF 300 as being the penalty for delay / cancellation of my daughter's flight under EU rule 261/2004. The airline never actually emailed me to say they had paid any money nor did they offer any further apologies but at least I received the satisfaction of getting some compensation for the damage caused, ( we were supposed to be attending the 80th birthday of my mother and also, on the same day, the wedding reception of my niece, but missed both events ).

Keep pushing and really consider legal action.

passengerrights@bazl.admin.ch

http://www.euclaim.co.uk/ ( I appreciate this is mainly for delayed flights but would email to see if they can help )

http://www.bottonline.co.uk/ ( referred by EuClaim - may only be limited to UK claims but worth a try - or just google for more such lawyers.
Société Air France, Paris, succursale de Meyrin, siège de sa représentation pour la Suisse

route de Pré-Bois 29
1217 Meyrin ( Legal address )
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  #63  
Old 16.06.2014, 10:56
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

My daughter showed up at MXP yesterday, minus their bags that didn't get loaded at JFK.

Tom
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  #64  
Old 16.06.2014, 11:16
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

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My daughter showed up at MXP yesterday, minus their bags that didn't get loaded at JFK.

Tom
I'm never sure why people are so surprised by this. I worked in aviation for many years, and I would say a flight more often left with a few bags missing than with all the bags!

I am genuinely surprised every time my baggage makes it. I've only lost a bag twice… once was skis returning to the UK from Geneva, no big deal and it was a small aircraft so they just wouldn't fit on. Second was no so cool, my bag didn't make my transfer flight to Uganda and the next flight in was 3 days later (fortunately i'd expected it and put some spare clothes in my hand luggage).
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  #65  
Old 16.06.2014, 11:43
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

I think the reason people are so surprised is due to the fact that airlines keep on telling us how, for security sakes, passengers and bags must be matched up and travel together and can not possibly travel separately and all that cr*p, only for bags to go astray and either not fly with their owners or to grow legs and wings and land up in completely different airports from where they were supposed to end up in and despite be tagged by all sorts of electronic identification and that.

You are lucky that you have only experienced two incidents of luggage gone astray. I have experienced two incidents of luggage which never turned up at all. And I have experienced well over a dozen other incidents over the years where my luggage has gone astray, and several incidents where luggage has turned up damaged.

The last damage report was on the ZRH-CAI flight in March, and a couple of years ago my daughter and my own bags were not loaded on the plane at Cairo for the CAI-ZRH-LCY flights. In that particular case, my bag went on the next Swiss flight, ( three days later - why, oh, why could they not send it with Lufthansa that day I do not know ), to Zurich, then on to LHR, then with BM to Manchester and then with Aurigny to Guernsey, where I was by that time.

I had one large white traveling bag which has the record amongst my gone-walkies luggage as that has gone astray three different times - once on a CDG-ZRH flight, once on a ZRH-CAI flight and once on a Lagos-Cairo flight. That last time it was found hiding in the back areas of Cairo Airport unwilling, it seems, to jump onto the luggage conveyor belt. Maybe that particular bag just didn't like me


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I'm never sure why people are so surprised by this. I worked in aviation for many years, and I would say a flight more often left with a few bags missing than with all the bags!

I am genuinely surprised every time my baggage makes it. I've only lost a bag twice… once was skis returning to the UK from Geneva, no big deal and it was a small aircraft so they just wouldn't fit on. Second was no so cool, my bag didn't make my transfer flight to Uganda and the next flight in was 3 days later (fortunately i'd expected it and put some spare clothes in my hand luggage).
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  #66  
Old 16.06.2014, 16:51
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Alright... a mixed strategy eventually: I have prepared the letter today. Started off with 3 pages of bitter and gut wrenching emotionally charged story, edited and polished to a single page, fact filled and to the point message. Attaching all referenced correspondence and receipts, etc tomorrow I will be mailing to:

- AF Switzerland legal address
- FOCA
- AF Paris customer care address
- AF Geneva airport mailing address
- Ministry of Transport (nice twist, hat tip to @taveau)

What I have done in addition was to define current claim:
- 2 pieces of luggage with full description an replacement values [expecting this to be capped at 1,131 SDR/bag (today appox CHF 1560/bag)]
- immediate expenses for toiletries and clothes
- communication and inconvenience charges 30chf/day for each day past 21st day since incident and until payment

Specified clear deadline: 20 calendar days as of receipt of letter for complete reimbursement of all three points of the claim.

Included note on next steps: failure to satisfy above will result in court claim amended with legal expenses and statutory damages in addition to those already listed.

Above I mentioned mixed strategy - so, first step: the registered mail, letter, deadline, etc. I will do myself. If this reaps no result, which it probably won't, then I will approach a lawyer and ask him/her to step in and handle from there onwards.

For a moment, I have been tempted to inject a middle step before the lawyer and after the letter: filing a small claims dispute but am unclear how it works at this point in time. Need to investigate, as it may prove to be the unlocking resolution strategy - highly unlikely anyone from AF will travel to Geneva to represent their side, and I've heard officers and judges take this very personal and normally award full claim + legal and representation expenses + punitive CHF 5k on top of it all... Rumors, all of it, but even if just the first half is true, this would bring me closure and put it behind me.

This is going to be one of them journeys to remember.
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  #67  
Old 23.06.2014, 15:11
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Alright, boys and girls, update:

The FOCA email just returned a kind message suggesting this should be worded as a civil claim and addressed to the nearest court.

Moments ago, the AirFrance spam server sent this:

Quote:
Customer Care

Centre Europe











Please do not respond to this automated message





Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,



We acknowledge receipt of your correspondence dated 18 june 2014. Thank you for taking the time to contact us.



Please be assured that we are giving this our utmost attention and one of our Customer Care Officers will be in touch with you as soon as possible.



In the meantime, should you require any further information, please visit the 'Contact us' pages of the AF /KLM website of your country of residence.



Yours sincerely,



Baggage Claims Centre





It is not possible to reply to this e-mail



The data and information contained in this message may be confidential and subject to professional secrecy and is intended for the exclusive use of the recipient at the address shown above. If you receive this message by mistake, we ask you not to copy, use or disclose it. Please notify this error to the sender immediately and delete this message from your system. Société Air France - Limited company with capital of 126,748,775 euros - Bobigny register of companies (France) 420 495 178 - 45, rue de Paris, 95 747 Roissy CDG CEDEX Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286.








Air France - Europe,Customer Care Centre, TSA 21235, 75564 PARIS, Cedex 12, FRANCE

Société Air France, société anonyme au capital de 126 748 775 Euros,

RCS Bobigny 420 495 178

Siège social : 45, rue de Paris 95747 Roissy Charles de Gaulle cedex - Tremblay en France
I am treating this message as spam, since it is coming from mail.Noreply-AirFranceKLMDeltacustomercare @ airfrance.fr No sender, no contact details, no way to respond.

But it does prove several good points:

1) this does qualify as a civil case and FOCA encourages me to file one

2) the *ONLY* way to communicate with AirFrance should be in writing, with registered mail and deadline defined before a claim is submitted to court. All else is waste of time and effort.

Ball in their court - let's see where the game takes us.
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  #68  
Old 23.06.2014, 15:33
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

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I think the reason people are so surprised is due to the fact that airlines keep on telling us how, for security sakes, passengers and bags must be matched up and travel together and can not possibly travel separately and all that cr*p, only for bags to go astray and either not fly with their owners or to grow legs and wings and land up in completely different airports from where they were supposed to end up in and despite be tagged by all sorts of electronic identification and that.
The reason passengers must be matched up with their bags is due to Lockerbie. It is to avoid a passenger putting a bomb in their bag, checking in, then never turning up for the flight. These days the bag would be off-loaded as it is never allowed to travel alone and the bomber would fail to take down the aircraft.

However, the situations you have described do not carry that risk, as they are out of the control of the possible bomber and too unlikely.

Option 1, the passenger travels but the bag misses the flight and travels on a later flight. Well the passenger would never know that this is going to happen to their bag or which flight it will follow on and which time. So they won't do it, so it isn't dangerous. Also these "unaccompanied" bags are subject to extra security checks before they are forwarded alone.

Option 2, the bag gets put on the wrong flight. This shouldn't happen due to the electronic baggage tag. But lets say it happens occasionally, the passenger has absolutely no control over this either, therefore can't use it as a way to get a bomb on board on aircraft for the same reasons as above, so if it does happen the passenger is unaware and travelling on their aircraft assuming their bags is onboard… therefore it is safe.
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  #69  
Old 02.07.2014, 14:16
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Alright, alright, a long overdue update...

Moments ago the following message hit my inbox:
Quote:
Our ref. : XXXXXXXXXX
PIR : XXXXXXXXXXX
Flights : XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear Mr XYZ,
We write further to your message concerning the regrettable incidents to your baggage and wish to offer you our apologies for the inconvenience caused to you on this occasion.
Having studied your file and based on the information provided, we are pleased to confirm that, in line with our maximum liability prescribed by the article 22 of the Montreal Convention (1131 SDR*), your bank account will be credited with 1559.79 CHF shortly.
We would like to advise our customers that at any time we reserve the right to request the original copy of invoices or receipts submitted.
We hope your subsequent journeys with us will be to your entire satisfaction.
Yours sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Several issues, which I addressed in return email instantly:

Quote:
Dear M. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX,


Thank you for your email. Despite arriving before the deadline I set in my letter delivered via registered mail on the 23rd June, your proposed solution is partial, not completely covering the claim and is, therefore, not acceptable.


The Montreal Convention you quote specifies compensation of 1,131 SDR per item checked and, in my case you studied carefully, there are two checked-in items missing.


In addition you are not mentioning, nor proposing compensation for, the immediate expenses of CHF xxxxx which were supported and recommended upon landing by your social media team.


In summary, if you intend to settle this claim out of court, I expect the compensation due in full, i.e.

1) two checked luggage items, SDR 1,131 each = CHF 3,119.52 (using your exchange rate)

2) immediate expenses upon arrival = CHF xxxxx




Any partial or incomplete settlement will leave me no option but to address the court, where above claim will be amended with legal representation, statutory, communication and inconvenience costs.


Until this is resolved entirely and completely, I remain available to finding swift resolution to the issue at hand.


Your sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXX
It is obvious that the route proposed by @CorsebouTheReturn is working. This time I have an email from a person, with a name, phone and all.

For the time being I am preserving identity and details blank. I would like to flatter myself believing that telling them I intend to put up a website which explains how to take them to court after I troubleshoot the process and debug for errors has contributed to this reply.

Only time will tell if:
1) there is a live person who will use common sense and act swiftly and pay to resolve instead of paying more later;
2) I was, again, delusional in my hopes and beliefs and the lawyerman cometh

Will keep you updated and yes, I am seriously considering a website which will document this journey. http://TakeAirFranceToCourt.com is free, for now...


EDIT >>>

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, naive me,
Look what I got back

Quote:
Dear customer,

You have sent an email to customer-care@airfrance.fr in reaction to our email.
Unfortunately this is a no-reply email address. We apologize for the inconvenience.

In case you wish to react to our email, please do so via the webform which you can find on www.AirFrance.com
Select your country of residence / Contact us / Contact our Customer Relations Department / Make a Claim / Next >.

Please mention the reference number, if available, in our email in the designated field at the bottom of the form.

With Kind regards,
Air France Customer Care

Last edited by defcon3; 02.07.2014 at 14:54. Reason: received reply
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  #70  
Old 02.07.2014, 14:46
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

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in line with our maximum liability prescribed by the article 22 of the Montreal Convention (1131 SDR*), your bank account will be credited with 1559.79 CHF shortly...
This got the wheels turning for me...Do they already have your banking details or perhaps they plan to refund your credit card? If they do this as stated above and you have no way to "reject" the funds, can they then effectively wash their hands of it and say they met the obligations? Just food for thought.
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Old 02.07.2014, 14:53
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

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Several issues, which I addressed in return email instantly...
Presumably you will be printing and posting it by registered post? Emails can get "lost". Suggest you print both the reply and the letter and re-send to all on your mailing list (a few posts above) if not already considered.

Secondly, don't post anything that could prejudice any court case...

I'm sure someone has already pointed you to this:


Just to put a smile on your face.
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Old 02.07.2014, 15:13
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

In my incident with Swiss, ( see post #62 ), before making their first payment they had requested my accounts details so I gave them the details of my postfinance account and all three payments that they eventually made were into that account.

I would suggest that you, in refusing their offer, add your account details to your full claim. So the wording of your reply could or could have been...

"In summary, if you intend to settle this claim out of court, I expect the compensation due in full, i.e.

1) two checked luggage items, SDR 1,131 each = CHF 3,119.52 (using your exchange rate)

2) immediate expenses upon arrival = CHF xxxxx

Payment can be made into this account : etc etc etc etc etc "

With an absence of any account details, or if problems arise with a refund to your credit card, the airline may just continue to delay even further the outcome of this matter.
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  #73  
Old 02.07.2014, 15:56
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

First and foremost -- thank you for the support and good tips and ideas.

I managed to somehow jump over the phone menu hoops and spoke to a LIVE PERSON!!! Same live person (or exquisite AI script, starting to doubt everything now) said that the online claim form is *the only* way in, so I should go to the claim form and be sure to include the reference number at the bottom, so it is appended to the original claim and responded accordingly.

To your questions on the banking details: my first emails and the letter after that all included these, plus they have the credit card on record. So, many ways to execute the payment.

Additionally, the live person suggested the colleague who treated the file has already made payment, which should be executed within the coming day or two.

So, in terms of next steps:

Within 24hrs I should receive the system confirmation for my reply being submitted.
Within the "coming day or two" I should see the chf 1,5k payment

Now, assuming that my reply is confirmed as received + then appended to the right file and responded to, we are back to the first fork: they either treat it right and pay the delta, or I patiently await the 20 calendar days to expire and then call in the services of a lawyer.

It is insulting what customers are subjected to. I am using this thread to minute the progress along the way and wonder if summarizing and putting a website up would be a catalyst or a stick in the wheels for this to be resolved... I wish my skills went as far as creating a video like the one on United

EDIT >> Just received the automated system confirmation that my message is received. Let's see how long before they reply.

Last edited by defcon3; 02.07.2014 at 16:19.
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Old 02.07.2014, 16:42
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Well you did put me off for ever flying with them if that helps
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  #75  
Old 02.07.2014, 22:33
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

"To your questions on the banking details: my first emails and the letter after that all included these, plus they have the credit card on record. So, many ways to execute the payment."

Excellent !

"It is insulting what customers are subjected to."

Very true !!Customer service - specifically the handling of complaints is appalling in many companies. Egypt, Switzerland, UK - it does not matter where. Hotel companies, banks, airlines, telecommunications, etc - regardless of the industry, they all seem determined to avoid taking one's complaints and make the whole lodging of complaints process as tedious as possible, only to run after one self with their marketing teams after one has finally walked away from them.

Swiss, Blue Islands, Barclays, Premier Inn, Vodafone etc etc - I have had battles with them all and more in the past.

So very very frustrating and annoying !
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  #76  
Old 02.07.2014, 23:47
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Remember swiss and many other airlines refuse to pay out for baggage damage to wheels handles etc even though its a 3rd parts company doing the baggage.
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  #77  
Old 03.07.2014, 06:08
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

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Remember swiss and many other airlines refuse to pay out for baggage damage to wheels handles etc even though its a 3rd parts company doing the baggage.
On my last flight with Swiss, coming back from Zurich to Cairo a few months ago, one of the wheels off of my suitcase disappeared and Swiss, through their local agent, repaired the bag. They even informed me that if they could not find the right replacement wheel they would buy a whole new bag. In this particular case, I was very pleased with the way they handled the matter and yet two years earlier they were terrible.
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  #78  
Old 03.07.2014, 07:50
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Surprised as they hand out a flyer at the luggage desk saying they dont pay for wheels and handles etc.
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Old 03.07.2014, 15:05
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

It seems like the gentleman I had on the phone yesterday did speak true to the claim form being the only way in...

Just now I got the following email in reply

Quote:
Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXXXX,
We write further to your message dated 2nd July 2014 and have noted your dissatisfaction at the compensation payment offered regarding your baggage incident.
In order to assist us review your claim, please forward us as soon as possible the original receipts for the items contained in your baggage and for the first necessity items purchased.
Please, always mention your reference number for further communication for easier location of your file.
We thank you for your cooperation.
Yours sincerely,
The fact they ask of the *original* receipts is weird: is this just stalling? 1) the Montreal Convention does not allow the freedom of airlines to require original receipts to fulfill a claim and
2) who keeps original receipts for all their clothes???

I am guessing this is a way to say:
- send by mail (say a week)
- let us review (say another week)
- then we'll say "naaaaah, we'll give you 50%" (another week)
- passenger will reply "hell no, pay me my luggage" (another week)
and so on an so forth...

Currently on the fence between
a) sending a reply "stop stalling, pay or we meet in court"
and
b) cooperating fully and sending the original receipts for immediate expenses. The rest will remain "undocumented", I guess?

With each passing day my resolve to go through the whole 9 yards of suffering only to put up a website at the end is growing.
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Old 03.07.2014, 15:30
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Re: It just never ends, does it?! [AirFrance Lost Our Luggage]

Yep... definitely once again stalling in the hope that you will say "Oh well, I could n't be bothered " and agree to their offer.

This is why all these companies make it so difficult to lodge a complaint and make it so tedious and tiresome for those lodging complaints... in the hope that many people will just give up.
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air france, lost luggage, lost stroller, never fly airfrance, paris cdg




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