And I forgot this:
http://www.immoscout24.ch/IS24Web/Co...nav=3&subnav=1
Cheers,
Nick

Iv a question regarding noise. What about tattoo machine and/or violin during the day? Is it acceptable or be an object of complaint? thanks

Do you play the violin to drown out the screams of the person being tattooed?

Cheers,
Nick

During the day (7AM-7PM, except during 12PM-1PM) it's fine.

Tom

just wondering if either or both would be too noisy for the neighbors in swiss standards

That website that Nickatbasel posted said that such noise is acceptable through the day so long as it isn't constant (i.e. the neighbours don't want to hear violin practice for 8 hours straight). That's how I interpreted it.

It depends whether it's a heart with "Mum" written on it or "Tranmere for the Cup".

Cheers,
Nick

First of all, do you have the landlord's permission to run a small business out of your flat? I dont think that tattoo machine is for your sole use only, no? Clients will be coming in and out of the building and neighbours might not like it.

As for musical instruments, tough call.

AFAIK, playing musical instruments constitutes part and parcel of apartment living as long as it isnt "excessive" - which we all know is very vague and is subjected to interpretation. You dont need a landlord's specific permission for that but it is safer to ask upfront and suss out the neighbours especially if you are planning to take it up seriously putting in hours of practice, or teach from home.

I will be more tolerant of someone who is good playing the violin for as long as they like in the day versus just an hour of a beginner/someone average sounding like they are slaughtering a chicken. But hey, everyone's got to start somewhere! Others might not be as tolerant. Then again, I am the last person you should ask about musical instruments because I play/teach the piano at home and I am biased.

__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.

Thanks so much for all the replies. And I now know where to go for my next tattoo!

In reply, in no particular order: I'm a woman, my flatmate is *just* a flatmate and nothing else (hence my confusion at being accused of having very loud sex, both of us are very sad singles, maybe some other neighbour was enjoying some adult entertainment courtesy of the internet?), I also find it very unlikely that there is any kind of 'right' to 'absolute silence', but appreciate the need to be quiet -- we do need to talk though, my neighbour is American, not Swiss, but I'm not sure what difference that makes -- I think she thinks that we're Swiss.

Oh, and I nearly hammered my flatmate when he told me about the hammering. I ate some of his food and made fun of his hair for a week as a punishment.

And thank you so much for the links nickatbasel -- that's really useful. Is there a sticky on the forum with these kinds of links about housing questions, like noise and how-the-hell does recycling work here?

I don't think tattoo machines are so loud, and it's not too obnoxious a noise. One of my other neighbours plays the violin and it's one of the few noises I can really hear in my room, but it's beautiful so I don't mind. I guess practising would be pretty bad, but as summerrain said -- you gotta learn somehow. And maybe they'll think it's a child and be more sympathetic

CHEERS, ALL! I'll let you know if we get kicked out of our apartment building and have to live in a bin, or whatever (as some seem to think we deserve) or if we come to happy rapprochement, and all become best buds and go on a road trip across Venezuela together and have many adventures, which is the outcome I'm hoping for.

Now where are those links to answers to Housing questions? Somewhere or other I'm sure there is a Sticky Thread. Surprise, surprise, it's in the Housing in General sub-forum.

Sorry! I'm still confused... Durrr.

I'm feeling very kind this morning.

Forums > Helps and Tips > Housing in General > Top Sticky Thread

You have to click on the various Threads inside that sticky yourself though.

('Sticky' just means that the Thread always stays at the top of the Sub-Forum Threads and doesn't get buried and slip down and off the page when a lot of other new Threads are made)

You mean you're not going to read out loud to the class?

Aww...

Cheers,
Niick

The tattoo and violin are just hobbies. I really havent unpacked them yet as im worried of the noise. Im just slightly above beginner when it comes to playing. And total beginner with tattoos (synthetic skin but ive had the pleasure to experiment on some eager/unlucky bums back home) but its no business and only for killing time in long/rainy days.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachtruhest%C3%B6rung

Legal situation in Switzerland

The criminal law of the offense, based on the public space, is left here to the cantons. The rent law also refers in this connection to the house rules and the Civil Code is a regulation in Rule 684.

I dont know how loud tattoo machines get, but they dont seem very loud to me. Just go easy on them.

As for the violin, i dont see any problem if its not excessive. In the unfortunate case of any neighbour complaining, just be polite and apologise for being rubbish - even if you're not. Soothes the edges a little. If it bothers them, simply ask when its a convenient time for you to practice, and if they say never - politely point out to them that you are allowed 2-3 hours a day as part and parcel of apartment living. I need to dig up that source link again as I was in a minor disagreement with my neighbours upstairs previously.

EDIT: here you go - under the mieterverband website's section of MietrechtOnline, click on Fragen and Antworten and do a search on Musik. It comes up with Art 257f OR that says:

"Sofern Ihnen die Mietsache nicht ausdrücklich und ohne Einschränkungen zum Musizieren vermietet wurde, müssen Sie im üblichen Umfange auf die Mitmieterschaft Rücksicht nehmen. Im Allgemeinen geht man davon aus, dass in jeder Mietwohnung ausserhalb der Ruhezeiten 2 - 3 Stunden pro Tag musiziert werden darf. Dieses Recht kann durch einen Mietvertrag oder eine Hausordnung nicht eingeschränkt werden. Eine Ausnahme gilt für sehr laute Instrumente wie Schlagzeug oder Trompete. "

From my understanding (though my German is appalling), you are allowed to play your instrument up to 2-3 hours unrestricted daily - unless its drums or a trumpet.

HTH.

__________________
Remember when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, BUT it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and b****-slap the mother-f***er upside the head.

Hi Ittigen,

Nice try but no cigar...

Art. 684 just refers to "annoying noise". My extensive reading around this subject (and I am too lazy to post links) ndicates that what actually constitutes annoying noise is open to interpretation and has no rigid definition in law.

However the law does allow for the fact that people have a right to a "normal" existence in their apartments - for example somebody who works a nightshift and comes home during the "Nachtruhe" period is not prevented from having a shower. Also, many people get up and get ready for work between 5am and 7am - officially Nachtruhe - but they can't be expected to walk around on eggshells.

Unfortunately, the lack of a clear legal definition of what constitutes annoying noise turns the whole situation into a bullying neighbour's charter as I found out.

Last year we moved from Basel to Zürich having been in Basel for nearly 9 years. At the time our son is 3 years old and as a baby did his fare share of screaming and running about as a toddler - we never once had the neighbours complain; though we did our best to minimise the noise - at the end of the day you will never get it to zero as hard as you try. But we have lived in Switzerland for long enough to know the score.

In our new place in Zürich, we had the keys to the place a few weeks before we properly moved in so we spent a night here around Ascension Day on lilos just to get him used to the idea of moving. In the morning, a couple of times around the 10am mark, he bounced a little rubber ball he has on the parquet flooring and seconds later the neighbour from downstairs came to complain. Fair enough - we apologised and promised to prevent a recurrence.

After we moved in we held an apéro for all neigbours in the block and got on first name terms - including with the couple downstairs. So we put the previous incident down to a one-off.

In August, my wifes brother came with his family from Amsterdam on their way to holiday in Italy and stayed overnight. Of course, the kids got a bit loud and at 10:01pm exactly the downstairs neighbour came. Again, fair cop and I apologised. Then she went on to complain about all the noise we make before 7am - which surprised me a little.

Normally I get up at 6am and do a few exercises on a yoga mat we have, have a quick shower (which is allowed) and breakfast before leaving for the office around 7:30ish - so I asked if it was any of that. She said no, it is our son running about. I was amazed as he is usually up out of bed just before I leave - before that he is asleep so not running about; and we're pretty strict on him running indoors - though he forgets himself from time to time as 3-4 year olds do and we check him. So if there is any sound from him, it is outside the "Nachtrühe" time - and I explained that the law allows children to play (the Swiss German word is "Gspännli") in the apartment - of course we do our best to minimise inconvenience to the neighbours.

Having lost that argument she then changed tack and told us that her (two teenagers) kids want to have a lie in during the school holidays so we have to be dead quiet even outside the Nachtrühe time. In my experience, any teenager needs an atom bomb under their bed to get them up before lunchtime - so that argument did not wash; however I just said we'll do our best but she must appreciate that the law allows for a certain amount of noise during the day when it constitutes normal use of the residence and that we can't put our son in a straight-jacket.

She also complained about the fact that as I am walking to the lift to go to the office (a 5 second walk) - he says "bye bye Daddy" a couple of times in the hallway. So now we do whispered "bye byes" - even if it is outside the quiet period.

As it is, the woman has some health issues - some kind of hip joint problem so I imagine she does not sleep well (and co-proxamol - the usual painkiller in such cases - is fairly poky stuff that plays havoc with your judgement) so I do try to see it from her side; but by the same token we can't be expected to live like monks. I should add that the last summer the same neighbours had an air-conditioning unit going into the night during the hot weather which kept me awake; and she smokes what smells like Navy Cut on the balcony which makes our balcony unusable on occasion. However I'll let it go as I imagine she gets few pleasures in life.

The same neighbours also have regular screaming matches with their teenagers (which they seem to save for when I am trying to put my son to bed); one of the teenagers "plays" piano and sounds like she wants to get on the next series of DSDS (as a 3 times "nein" candidate) and the woman has an own washing machine which gets used to beyond 10pm. Oh, and she holds the building record for use of the Waschküche (average 13 hours per week).

I have mentioned these episodes to quite a few Swiss colleagues - young and old and to guys in my Fasnacht clique - who tell me we are doing nothing wrong. Ultimately the solution is to find a proper house with its own garden (already started looking) however we still have to live here so we just smile politely and do our best to keep them sweet. All the other neighbours are fine.

Interestingly, a work colleague lives in a nearby apartment block and I mentioned to him about our troublesome neighbours - without mentioning their family name. The next day he came back to me and asked, "those neighbours, is the family name '<edited>' by any chance?". He had mentioned about our problems to his wife and she instantly know who we were talking about. My colleague told me that those neighbours kids had big problems at school that the reputation of this family went before them!

Nevertheless, I keep a spreadsheet where I record all the times they transgress the rules or make annoying noise so should they ever complain to the Verwaltung about us I will be suitably armed!

Of course I do not dare practice my Fasnacht piccolo in the apartment (which I never worried about in Basel)...oh well.."zuviel Züri schädet Gesundheit"...

Cheers,
Nick

__________________

Legality is one thing, common sense another. It just depends on your neighbours surely? And whether they are at home during the day, or at work. If one works night shifts (nurse/police/maintenance, etc) - and so on. Why not get to know who your neighbours are and ask them. Or try to start playing but not all day long, and then see what happens. If only people talked to each other and cooperated - then we wouldn't need so many laws.

I refer the honourable gentleman to this paragraph in my post:

"After we moved in we held an apéro for all neigbours in the block and got on first name terms - including with the couple downstairs."

Cheers,
Nick