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Old 18.11.2006, 15:09
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Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Reading through these posts, I thought you guys should read an article written on another expat website - http://www.baselexpats.com as it adds to the debate in my opinion.

The whole article is to be found at this link.

I do not want to run into copyright issues - hence I will not post the text.

The article is from a friend who lived with his family in a village in Solothurn; and they were treated appallingly by the locals for the entire time they were there, in spite of making every effort to integrate.

Quite frankly, I would be ashamed to be Swiss in view of the treatment they received. The family have since returned to the UK and are doing well by all accounts.

I think the sentiment in the article about being tolerated rather than accepted by the Swiss is one I would go along with.

I would hope that a Swiss family living in the UK receives better treatment than this English family received in Switzerland.

Incidentally, my friend's wife wrote some excellent articles about their experiences - again I will not post the text but instead a link to the main page.

There are five articles altogether - "Moving to Switzerland: One Woman's Story".

Cheers,
Nick
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Last edited by evilshell; 18.11.2006 at 17:04. Reason: Moved to new Xenophobic thread
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Old 18.11.2006, 15:57
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Nick, there was nothing racist about how our mutual friends were treated. Xenophobic, yes. Crappy, yes. But racist? No.
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Old 18.11.2006, 16:44
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
Nick, there was nothing racist about how our mutual friends were treated. Xenophobic, yes. Crappy, yes. But racist? No.
Terminology aside, I think it is an important aspect to the racism debate as a whole; as it is about how perceived outsiders are treated.

Rgds,
Nick
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Old 18.11.2006, 17:01
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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Terminology aside, I think it is an important aspect to the racism debate as a whole; as it is about how perceived outsiders are treated.
That's why I've moved it to the newly created xenophobic thread.
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Old 19.11.2006, 12:16
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Yes there were several rape cases but not all of them were foreigners.

There was another incident that really left me worried sick.

Guck hier !

However, i blame it on the parenting.
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Old 19.11.2006, 13:54
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
Yes there were several rape cases but not all of them were foreigners.

There was another incident that really left me worried sick.

Guck hier !

However, i blame it on the parenting.
No one is saying that the Swiss are not capable of rape. They have human defects like everyone else. We are talking about the % es here.

I blame it on the parents but also their religion. Btw the Church hate crime involved no Swiss Swiss person. In case you were trying to say that.

"A young author originates from Switzerland, two from the earlier Serbia Montenegro and two from Bosnia-Herzegovina. None of them is Christian."

Clear case of religious hate crime. No guesses for which religion they belong to.

Btw my Swiss friend told me that the church near her place has Mary statue above the door (20 feet from the ground or so). You can see clear splash marks...someone threw liquid stuff at it. Like the marks you see on banks after May1st demos.

Principia Discordia you are absolutely right that Swiss are VERY tolerant. That might change one day and innocent foreigners like me who stick out like sore thumb will probably be at the receiving end
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Old 19.11.2006, 15:25
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:

1. I blame it on the parents but also their religion. Btw the Church hate crime involved no Swiss Swiss person. In case you were trying to say that.
"A young author originates from Switzerland, two from the earlier Serbia Montenegro and two from Bosnia-Herzegovina. None of them is Christian."
Clear case of religious hate crime. No guesses for which religion they belong to.

2.Principia Discordia you are absolutely right that Swiss are VERY tolerant. That might change one day and innocent foreigners like me who stick out like sore thumb will probably be at the receiving end
1. Yes but it's too simple to blame their religion. I mean these muslims are not bad persons from scratch. Most economic refugees in CH and the E.U. come from muslim countries. We shouldn't talk religion. This is clearly a parental, mental issue where authorities should react and do something. One thing is for sure, if those people (the lower income class) don't change their minds a little bit, behave like westerners and follow the rules (like everybody) things will never change. As long as the average swiss' read such articles in the newspapers they will never change their minds about them. The fact that it's small country where headlines spread fast and antipathy affects easily the whole nation doesnt help much.


2. No way. It's way too stable and the swiss can behave ! 5-10 years from now, people with migrational backgrounds (economical refugees) will have their place (in all income classes) here in switzerland and the swiss government will do everything to do so since society is aging that fast.

For the swiss using that word yugo. A "yugo" is in their eyes a person from the balkans (yugoslaviens, albanians etc.) This word is clearly racist and shouldn't be openly used. Its like calling all the asians slit eyes, the n. word or to call mexicans "wetbacks". However all of them are extremely descriminating but are frequently used by members of western nations. That's a phenomena in all developed nations.

I'm optimistic. For the haters i can only say that once a person made a bad experience the only things he actually sees are the bad ones. Ya'll should concentrate more often on the good things. I simply don't understand why you are still here if you hate it that much. As much as i would like to get away some time, i still remember that i live in one of the most stable, advanced nations in the world and i'm happy for every foreigner that comes here, feels comfortable, stays and brings new great things to this country.
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Old 19.11.2006, 15:36
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

And the fact that all these problems come together and occur in CH on such a small space leads easily to misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
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Old 19.11.2006, 19:39
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:
1. Yes but it's too simple to blame their religion. I mean these muslims are not bad persons from scratch.
No person is bad from scratch (unless we go into genetics) but if you are fed an intolerant religious ideology then sure as hell you will become intolerant to some extent. The extent varies from person to person.


Quote:
Most economic refugees in CH and the E.U. come from muslim countries. We shouldn't talk religion.
Why shouldn't we talk religion sir? It sure as hell is effecting everyone. There is a low level religious invasion of Europe taking place whether you like it or not. Immigration on it's own is an explosive subject. If you combine religious immigrants then the stakes get raised very high.

Quote:
This is clearly a parental, mental issue where authorities should react and do something.
To say religion plays no part is typical extreme left argument. There have been plenty of cases in the west where the rapist has said he raped because the girl was asking for it by not wearing a head scarf (non-muslim women!)
As far as mental issues is concerned...in my opinion if someone believes that a criminal murderer prophet sent by "God" represents perfect human role model then sure as hell they have severe mental issues.

Quote:
One thing is for sure, if those people (the lower income class) don't change their minds a little bit, behave like westerners and follow the rules (like everybody)
I think I told you before that lower income class has nothing to do with it. You are trying to act well informed but you are acting ignorant by saying that
What I am saying might also sound ignorant to you but do your own research and you will see that I am only repeating what Islamic religious text clearly says about non-muslims.

Quote:
The fact that it's small country where headlines spread fast and antipathy affects easily the whole nation doesn't help much.
I say that helps the Swiss!


Quote:
2. No way. It's way too stable and the swiss can behave ! 5-10 years from now, people with migrational backgrounds (economical refugees) will have their place (in all income classes) here in switzerland and the swiss government will do everything to do so since society is aging that fast.
We will see. The way I see the future of Europe is that problems will only increase. Freedom of speech will decrease and religious loneys will increase as we are sitting on a demographic time bomb. I say there should be a points system for people immigrating into CH/Europe.

Quote:
For the swiss using that word yugo.
I never used that word nor will I ever use it. I personally never hold any ones nationality or color against them. Their religious views on the other hand I definitely hold against them as it's an ideology that they openly choose to follow.
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Old 19.11.2006, 19:41
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

The Xenophobia that we may be discussing is what I would call a naive FEAR. My swiss german colleagues are actaully afraid of change, and afraid of not being able to influence changes, in and around their country.
For example, two Swiss-German colleagues of mine were discussing whether the German permit holders should be penalised because of the rights of German aircraft to fly over the Zurich agglomoration at ungodly hours. They argued that the German permit holders should be punished on behalf of the German government.
I asked them why not just send the Germans home, and see how long before the medical and IT departments of Zurich grind to a halt. My colleagues absolutely want the business and support of the highly educated German permit holders, but they do not want the noise of the German planes.
They are also very afraid of the fact that there are not enough educated Swiss IT or medical graduates upcoming for the future, which means that Switzerland will have to change its attitude towards foreigners of ALL colours.
My colleagues would be happy for Switzerland to remain in a bubble, secure from the EU's trucks driving through the mountains, secure from the young "Yugos" (I find that term SO offensive) racing around at high speed driving up the cost of insurance policies, and secure from the wave after wave of global and economic changes, such as outsourcing, which could mean that they lose their jobs.
Unfortunately for them, it is just a matter of time before more "worldly" people take a hold in this nation. Anyone who breaks down the Swiss German language barrier, and is willing to work hard, keep themselves quiet, clean and punctual will easily do very well here, and they should be afraid...very afraid.
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Old 19.11.2006, 19:47
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:
The Xenophobia that we may be discussing is what I would call a naive FEAR. My swiss german colleagues are actaully afraid of change, and afraid of not being able to influence changes, in and around their country.
For example, two Swiss-German colleagues of mine were discussing whether the German permit holders should be penalised because of the rights of German aircraft to fly over the Zurich agglomoration at ungodly hours. They argued that the German permit holders should be punished on behalf of the German government.
I asked them why not just send the Germans home, and see how long before the medical and IT departments of Zurich grind to a halt. My colleagues absolutely want the business and support of the highly educated German permit holders, but they do not want the noise of the German planes.
They are also very afraid of the fact that there are not enough educated Swiss IT or medical graduates upcoming for the future, which means that Switzerland will have to change its attitude towards foreigners of ALL colours.
My colleagues would be happy for Switzerland to remain in a bubble, secure from the EU's trucks driving through the mountains, secure from the young "Yugos" (I find that term SO offensive) racing around at high speed driving up the cost of insurance policies, and secure from the wave after wave of global and economic changes, such as outsourcing, which could mean that they lose their jobs.
Unfortunately for them, it is just a matter of time before more "worldly" people take a hold in this nation. Anyone who breaks down the Swiss German language barrier, and is willing to work hard, keep themselves quiet, clean and punctual will easily do very well here, and they should be afraid...very afraid.
I agree with what you wrote but I don't think that fear is 100% unique to CH (the level of fear might be). UK is facing similar shortage and fear.
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Old 19.11.2006, 20:46
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:
1.Why shouldn't we talk religion sir?


2.I think I told you before that lower income class has nothing to do with it. You are trying to act well informed but you are acting ignorant by saying that

3.What I am saying might also sound ignorant to you but do your own research and you will see that I am only repeating what Islamic religious text clearly says about non-muslims.

1. Because this leads to misinterpretations. You can't fight fire with fire so it's up to us to make an effort. We shouldnt talk about the bad little "muslim". We know were this kind of accusation leads. In a dead end. This is a parental, social issue. Educate the parents, win the sons.

2. Why ? I can't see any high crime rates in upper income classes. And most criminals come from the low income classes. I'm not trying to act well informed dear. That's not really my point but probably one of an average swiss person who is not that much into "understanding a foreigners feelings". They don't play by the rules they'll get punished. By the way i'm pretty well informed trust me.

3. Well i hear that a lot. So what does it say about non muslims in your opinion ? The whole world should be muslim ? can't remember you mentioned that before.

PS. I'm not tryin to battle here with you. It's just sometimes your comments seem a little harsh. Do you really think that there is going to be a civil war in europe because of a few muslims ? maybe riots like in france but war?! please ...
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Old 19.11.2006, 21:47
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

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Because this leads to misinterpretations. You can't fight fire with fire so it's up to us to make an effort. We shouldnt talk about the bad little "muslim".
Good luck with your effort and with educating the parents who get their education from religious text. Let me know when you succeed. I won't be holding my breath.
Quote:
Why ? I can't see any high crime rates in upper income classes.
I am talking about rape which has nothing to do with income class! Btw what is white collar crime? So you are telling me that the rape spree taking place in some Swedish muslim dominated cities against Swedish girls is because their income is low? It has nothing to do with infidel war booty?
Go and hang is some Islamic forums and things might become bit clearer on what is in store for Europe if religious extremism is not contained NOW!


Quote:
Well i hear that a lot. So what does it say about non muslims in your opinion ?
Why don't you pick up few non politically correct books and read the history and teachings yourself? Start with this. Oh and everything in the book is directly taken from Islamic text. So you can convinently dismiss the book as full of hate but it contains the truth that people are avoiding. It is your choice if you want to make excuses for an intolerant ideology.


Quote:
I'm not tryin to battle here with you. It's just sometimes your comments seem a little harsh.
Neither am I I am having an open discussion with you and anyone on the forum who is willing to exchange facts and discuss matters openly. I am an independant thinker and I have absolutely no pro-Christian, liberal or conservative agenda.

Quote:
Do you really think that there is going to be a civil war in europe because of a few muslims ? maybe riots like in france but war?! please ...
Few muslims?

Albania- 2.2 Million 70%
Austria- 400,000 4-5%
Belgium- .5million 4%
Bosnia- 4Million 40%
Denmarkk- 270,000 5%
France- 6-7million 10%
Germany 3million 3.6%
Italy- Approaching million 1.5%
Macedonia 630,000 30%
Netherlands 1million 6% (Full headscarf just got banned)
Serbia/Kosovo...
Spain 1million 2.3%
Sweden 9million 3%
Turkey 68.7 million 99%
UK 1.6million 3%


CH 310,000 5+% Official figures suggest the Muslim population has doubled in recent years, but some sources say there are also about 150,000 Muslims in the country illegally.


If current trends continue we can have this talk in 20 years if not before OK? Btw I said civil war. It is easily possible in 15-25 years . What happened in Yugoslavia was not civil war? Is that not Europe? French riots were bad enough. 10,000+ cars burnt is no joke and it still has not died down in Paris.
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Old 19.11.2006, 21:48
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Are the Swiss as a whole xenophobic? Not anymore or less than people in many other lands. Xenophobia is not just a fear or fearful attitude towards foreigners but also towards something that is different from one self. Fears are the result of a lack of knowledge or the answer to misunderstood information. We all experience some level of xenophobia at one time or another during our lives and if we have managed to get rid of it is because we have learned why we have no reason to fear that which causes us to become xenophobic in the first place. However, we might want to take a minute and put ourselves in Swiss shoes (so to speak). This is a small land where the own nationals have always have to fight each other to get the lucrative employment opportunities. Many of the Swiss that pursued higher education left Switzerland to pursue their personal growth elsewhere. Slowly the country suffered from a drain of smart nationals. As the economy grew and more skilled workers were needed, the smart Swiss that had left where happy in their new foreign homes and the need for more skilled workers began. So, foreigners began to arrive in droves taking lucrative jobs that perhaps one not-yet skilled Swiss was hoping to someday have. Also, the initial fresh foreign arrivals may or may not have been sensitive to their new cultural environment. I am not denying that in every culture there are pre-learned phobias towards other cultures or races but I am also aware that many times our own attitudes contribute to feed such phobias. Rather than expect that people should just automatically accept us without prejudice (which would be a very good thing if possible) let's strive to help those with xenophobia to see that they have nothing to fear from us. We are fighting the fear not the people affected by it.
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Old 19.11.2006, 22:26
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:
1.Good luck with your effort and with educating the parents who get their education from religious text. Let me know when you succeed. I won't be holding my breath.

2.I am talking about rape which has nothing to do with income class! Btw what is white collar crime? So you are telling me that the rape spree taking place in some Swedish muslim dominated cities against Swedish girls is because their income is low? It has nothing to do with infidel war booty?
Go and hang is some Islamic forums and things might become bit clearer on what is in store for Europe if religious extremism is not contained NOW!

3.Why don't you pick up few non politically correct books and read the history and teachings yourself? Start with this. Oh and everything in the book is directly taken from Islamic text. So you can convinently dismiss the book as full of hate but it contains the truth that people are avoiding. It is your choice if you want to make excuses for an intolerant ideology.

4.Neither am I I am having an open discussion with you and anyone on the forum who is willing to exchange facts and discuss matters openly. I am an independant thinker and I have absolutely no pro-Christian, liberal or conservative agenda.

5.If current trends continue we can have this talk in 20 years if not before OK? Btw I said civil war. It is easily possible in 15-25 years . What happened in Yugoslavia was not civil war? Is that not Europe? French riots were bad enough. 10,000+ cars burnt is no joke and it still has not died down in Paris.

1. So what do you want to do ? blame them all ? deport them ? This is going to make CH look even more like racists or xenophobes. This would be an easy response but politically and ethically impossible. And that's what our swiss bashing friends here are just waiting for i guess. haha.

2. agreed.

3. Will do. I'll check the critics.

4. So am I. I like the way you see things but there's no way on earth you could openly discuss this that way on a political level.

5. I think it's hardly possible to compare the situation of yugoslavia back in the day with the situation in central and western europe today. However your worries are normal if i look at these statistics and we should consider that terrorism could easily spread within their societies.
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Old 19.11.2006, 23:17
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

Quote:
2. agreed.

3. Will do. I'll check the critics.

4. So am I. I like the way you see things but there's no way on earth you could openly discuss this that way on a political level.

5. I think it's hardly possible to compare the situation of yugoslavia back in the day with the situation in central and western europe today. However your worries are normal if i look at these statistics and we should consider that terrorism could easily spread within their societies.
You are not that unreasonable :-)

Quote:
1. So what do you want to do ? blame them all ? deport them ? This is going to make CH look even more like racists or xenophobes. This would be an easy response but politically and ethically impossible. And that's what our swiss bashing friends here are just waiting for i guess. haha.
Blame them all I am not as that would be too easy and convinent. Look the bottom line is that there are good and bad people all over the world that said one cannot naively ignore the fact that people from some parts of the world have very different outlook on life...outlook that is opposite to modern European values.

Non PC honest education on religion might be one way forward. I am very good friends with lot of apostates of Islam...although they can't say it openly (even in west Europe) out of safety fears. They rejected Islam for very obvious reasons. My hope is that lot more will do that in the future but I honestly don't see it happening. This religious conflict that has been going on and off for 1400+ years and I am not seeing any encouraging signs that it's going to end anytime soon.

I don't have any concrete solutions neither have any of the pencil pushing PC Eurocrats
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Old 19.11.2006, 23:29
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

alright there is surely a lot of truth in your comment!

I'm young but not naive. I know whats going on and i have a lot friends of different origin as well and i know their point of view. i neither have a solution on this. Its hard to stay politically correct.

by the way, i'll get that muhammad book tomorrow ! thanks for the link.
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Old 20.11.2006, 06:47
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

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Are the Swiss as a whole xenophobic? Not anymore or less than people in many other lands. Xenophobia is not just a fear or fearful attitude towards foreigners but also towards something that is different from one self. Fears are the result of a lack of knowledge or the answer to misunderstood information.
Apart from CH I have lived in The Netherlands, Italy, UK. Of the four nations I found the Swiss the least easy to get along with, and more likely to make anti-foreigner comments.

Rgds,
Nick
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Old 20.11.2006, 17:56
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Re: Xenophobia and Switzerland / the Swiss

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Apart from CH I have lived in The Netherlands, Italy, UK. Of the four nations I found the Swiss the least easy to get along with, and more likely to make anti-foreigner comments.

Rgds,
Nick
Interestingly enough I have heard plenty of anti-foreign comments as well as comments against people from other areas of the same country in many of the countries I have lived or visited, including the ones you have mentioned. That many Swiss are not as friendly on the onset as some other cultures might be is true but that does not mean that if one as a foreigner makes an effort to communicate with them in their language that they won't react in a friendly manner. Someone gave the example of him or her and a friend walking their dog and coming upon a "water" spot where a Swiss lady was trying to enjoy the water. As she had heard them speaking English she reacted at first a bit rude but as he/she spoke to her in Swiss German she changed her tune and nicely explained her case. Sometimes all they want to see is that the foreigners are making at least an attempt to integrate or learn the language and culture instead of just assuming that it is the Swiss that should adapt to our needs and desires.
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