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  #261  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:30
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Re: Swiss Manners

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Because the other person will think you're deliberately keeping the second seat occupied by making it less accessible / forcing others to ask if the seat's taken. If the tram's full, it's just not something you do.
Okay, understood. I would, frankly, prefer to give up my seat and stand (which I have done) than slide over to the window because it seems like the times I have moved over to the window seat to accommodate someone, more often than not, they either have luggage or a lot of shopping bags, and their bags always seem to end up in my lap while mine remain on the floor. I also get claustrophobic. I have also (voluntarily) given up my seat to elderly people, mothers with children and people traveling together so they can sit next to one another. So I am not that impolite!

Most of the people I see occupying the aisle seats are businessmen clicking away on their Crackberries, oblivious to the world around them, with their briefcases or backpacks occupying the window seat. THAT to me is totally rude and insensitive, because they've clearly blocked off the seat next to them, but it seems to be commonplace. I have also asked people on the train to move their feet or belongings off of empty seats next to/across from them so I could sit and have been totally ignored.
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  #262  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:36
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Re: Swiss Manners

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1. I would like to learn from you how to read while walking. That would indeed maximise my reading time.
2. Actually quite like that left or right 'dance' with strangers coming the opposite way 'coz more often than not we end up bursting into laughter or smiles -- when both end up stopping in the middle face to face.
Ah well, that needed years and years of training, since I'm introverted and started reading like a hamster (if that makes sense to anyone) I picked that up quite quickly... always nice to wander round the city with a good book! So far I managed to avoid any open sewers, cars and rivers etc.

And yes, the meeting-in-the-middle ends with a big smile most of the times - and most of you know how rare that can be

btw, love your sig !

Last edited by herc82; 05.05.2008 at 16:38. Reason: repair quote
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  #263  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:37
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Re: Swiss Manners

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You're doing this on purpose to make it more difficult for people to sit next to you. This, you've admitted.

You also make other people uncomfortable by making them have to ask you to move.

What do you do when the tram is full (apart from the inaccessible seat next to you) and an older person or a pregnant woman needs to sit down?

Do you force them to ask you to move or do you have enough manners to move across to the window seat?
Please see my response to Dawiz:

Swiss Manners

And try being less self-righteous, judgmental and presumptuous, if that's possible
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  #264  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:39
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Re: Swiss Manners

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P.S. SalsaLover's description of protecting the girl-partner while dancing got me all confused. While I sympathised with him, I did wonder: "Was he really talking about dancing?!" Anyone else had that doubt creeping into his/her mind?
He's may be latin. Everything is sexy when you're latin.
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  #265  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:41
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Re: Swiss Manners

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I have also asked people on the train to move their feet or belongings off of empty seats next to/across from them so I could sit and have been totally ignored.
Usually asking them in a reasonably loud voice is enough to get them to shift their baggage. It takes a particularly arrogant person (or a moody teenager ) to leave their baggage on a seat if they are aware the surrounding people also heard you say it.
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  #266  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:42
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Re: Swiss Manners

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1. I would like to learn from you how to read while walking. That would indeed maximise my reading time.

2. Actually quite like that left or right 'dance' with strangers coming the opposite way 'coz more often than not we end up bursting into laughter or smiles -- when both end up stopping in the middle face to face.


P.S. SalsaLover's description of protecting the girl-partner while dancing got me all confused. While I sympathised with him, I did wonder: "Was he really talking about dancing?!" Anyone else had that doubt creeping into his/her mind?
A dirty mind you have

Yes I was talking about dancing, protecting the girl from accidents, watching the other dancers on the floor before doing the moves....

P.S. after that at the end of the night you have also to be both "protected" IYKWIM
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  #267  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:46
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Re: Swiss Manners

No, I think chem has a valid point in that your understanding of what constitutes good manners may be lost on those who don't respect such behaviour and it will not be for them the "show of good manners" that you believe.

For example, letting the first arrival get on the train first may be to you a demonstration of good manners, but the other party may see it as just lack of streetwise-swiss-stylee.

The question is: do you continue to show consideration for others "beyond the call of duty" even if it is not reciprocated ?

I say yes.

dave

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That chem, is the source of all immigration and cultural integration problems.

the logic is not flawed, you can simply reduce it to "when you are in Rome you do like the Romans".

If your behaviour is different for ignorance of the tacit social rules or you get riled by your perception of the locals culture, then the fault is on your side not theirs. Simply live and learn and adapt and everything will be peachy.

And this is something that doesn't happens only here.

My culture, behaviour and perception of the society have changed to such a point that I get riled and offended much more when I am back in my country of origin. And when I am annoyed by that, they ( that is my family and childhood friends ) simply don't understand why. That is just normal for them. So when I am back in my country and I get into those cultural/manners problems it is indeed my fault not theirs.
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  #268  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:46
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Re: Swiss Manners

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Not all Swiss people see this as a nice civilised exchange.
They would rather, on the busy trains, find that the seats are kept bag-free and the overhead luggage racks and the luggage space between two sets of seat backs are used for bags.

They find this much more civilised and considerate.
O RLY? How odd! I had a couple of instances where I was on a crowded train and I asked people to move their feet/belongings off of empty seats next to/across from them so I could sit and was completely ignored. If that is how *civilised and considerate* are defined, then I am not impressed.
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  #269  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:47
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Re: Swiss Manners

I have to say I'm rather baffled by the fact that there have been pages on this thread about people who take up a seat on a bus/tram/train and how rude/not rude/lack of manners etc.

If this is the true fault in Swiss society I think I'll live with it.
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  #270  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:53
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Re: Swiss Manners

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Usually asking them in a reasonably loud voice is enough to get them to shift their baggage. It takes a particularly arrogant person (or a moody teenager ) to leave their baggage on a seat if they are aware the surrounding people also heard you say it.
What else can I say? I was reluctant to make a scene. As I recall, one of the offenders was a young person. The rest were older people. They wouldn't budge and made no effort to accommodate.
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  #271  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:54
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Re: Swiss Manners

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No, I think chem has a valid point in that your understanding of what constitutes good manners may be lost on those who don't respect such behaviour and it will not be for them the "show of good manners" that you believe.

For example, letting the first arrival get on the train first may be to you a demonstration of good manners, but the other party may see it as just lack of streetwise-swiss-stylee.

The question is: do you continue to show consideration for others "beyond the call of duty" even if it is not reciprocated ?

I say yes.

dave
Sure it is good to help others improve their manners and enrich their cultures with what you can bring of good out of yours.

I feel I do it with some people near me.

But to expect to teach a whole society to behave better is a Quixotian chore
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  #272  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:56
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Re: Swiss Manners

We are all just picking away at the moments that make up a dull day -whiling away the hours in an offhand way.

dave



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I have to say I'm rather baffled by the fact that there have been pages on this thread about people who take up a seat on a bus/tram/train and how rude/not rude/lack of manners etc.

If this is the true fault in Swiss society I think I'll live with it.
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  #273  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:59
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Re: Swiss Manners

This thread is running in circles like athletes in 3000 steeple The subject was discussed before but without a free SVP reference thrown in last time.

There are some oddities discussed on the forum that I as a native Swiss have experienced myself or that I can understand, like complaints for dropping a bottle in the recycling bin at five past eight in the evening or the whole shared laundry room business. Among the few that I don't get is the bumping complaint. It doesn't happen to me, I can't observe it, but some insist that walking in public spaces is like rolling through a pinball machine here.

It must be a cultural thing and I think Shorrick and a few others had a point when they said that slight body contact is just percieved less as a threat than elsewhere. Incidentally a North American user expressed this opinion when we had a chat at the last Talacker Bar evening.

Similar examples are that in Asian countries, people stand closer together in elevator cabins than elsewhere (I read this in an interesting essay of The New Yorker about the poor fellow who was stuck in an elevator for 41 hours by the way) or the already mentioned walk left, stand right code on escalators. (This is actually encouraged in many places in Switzerland and the neighboring countries - Do an image search for "'links gehen' 'rechts stehen'" if you're curious about that.)
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  #274  
Old 05.05.2008, 16:59
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Re: Swiss Manners

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If this is the true fault in Swiss society I think I'll live with it.
Shall we then get to smoking, laundry days, customer service, neighbors, restaurants, and so on and so on?
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  #275  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:00
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Re: Swiss Manners

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something
I'd like 5 rappen for every use of the signature please.

Just kidding.
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  #276  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:04
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Re: Swiss Manners

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Shall we then get to smoking, laundry days, customer service, neighbors, restaurants, and so on and so on?
In the 2 years I've been involved in the site I think the above has been done to death and back again.
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  #277  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:06
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Re: Swiss Manners

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Shall we then get to smoking, laundry days, customer service, neighbors, restaurants, and so on and so on?
{*Groans at you*}

Okay, Phos, you first
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  #278  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:09
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Re: Swiss Manners

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In the 2 years I've been involved in the site I think the above has been done to death and back again.
What do you propose to do? Threads die when they sink to the bottom.

There's actually a nice vibe on this thread. Goes along well with the blue sky and sun. Nice to chat with some many well mannered people. Gotta problem with that? Then resist reading and posting, I say.
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  #279  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:10
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Re: Swiss Manners

I think you missed my point Salsa. Because that was my point.

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That chem, is the source of all immigration and cultural integration problems.

the logic is not flawed, you can simply reduce it to "when you are in Rome you do like the Romans".

If your behaviour is different for ignorance of the tacit social rules or you get riled by your perception of the locals culture, then the fault is on your side not theirs. Simply live and learn and adapt and everything will be peachy.

And this is something that doesn't happens only here.

My culture, behaviour and perception of the society have changed to such a point that I get riled and offended much more when I am back in my country of origin. And when I am annoyed by that, they ( that is my family and childhood friends ) simply don't understand why. That is just normal for them. So when I am back in my country and I get into those cultural/manners problems it is indeed my fault not theirs.
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  #280  
Old 05.05.2008, 17:10
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Re: Swiss Manners

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You are falling into the patronising "Like I said" trap here....

dave
I know...thanks for reminding me. I've stopped though.
And I apologize publicly for having fallen in that trap!!
Sometimes it's just stronger than will power!

Last edited by miniMia; 05.05.2008 at 19:16. Reason: clarifying... fixing mis placed modifiers (or something like that)
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